Property as a Product: The Design Decisions That Increase Profit and Reduce Pain with Julian Maurice

Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00.066)
my investments are for my future, for my pension. It's like a financial fortress, part of a long-term strategy, which led me to think about design very carefully. And one of the things that I felt was important was to think about longevity when thinking about the design. So thinking about materials and products that would be easy to maintain and easily renovated over time. Rather than thinking about design as what it looks like, it was thinking about design of how it's supposed to work.

speaker-1 (00:31.778)
Welcome to this week's episode of Wealth Talk. My name is Christian Rodwell, the Memeship Director for Wealth Builders, joined today by our founder, Mr. Kevin Whelan. Hi, Kevin.

speaker-2 (00:40.098)
Hi, Grace. Good to be with you again. Although we're not happy campers when it comes to football right now.

speaker-1 (00:45.324)
No, both having sort of on and off seasons, we? Fulham and Newcastle respectively, yes.

speaker-2 (00:51.554)
Mid-table mediocrity, think, is our combined destinations. However, mid-table and mediocre has got nothing to do with our guest today, who is an outstanding individual, very articulate about something he's very passionate about, that it's very easy to fall into a trap of thinking about what he does in a more simplistic way in terms of design.

speaker-1 (01:18.862)
Absolutely. Yeah, our guest today is Julian Maurice. He'll definitely be putting a splash of color onto our black and white kits, won't he? Julian is passionate man. He's a very experienced property investor for over 25 years. In a time when landlords are really looking for every opportunity to squeeze those profits and perhaps putting a different look on things when it comes to design is Julian's expertise area. We'll learn today that...

Design means a lot more than just the color of paint on the wall and the color of your cushions.

speaker-2 (01:51.118)
I think he would be having fisticuffs with you if he thought you said that out loud. But anyway, I'm sure he'll speak eloquently for himself what he has to offer. I just love creative people, Chris, the sort of creative entrepreneur myself. I seek out creativity. was Robert Kiyosaki who said, power of your wealth is determined by the power of your distinctions and your ability to listen and be humble.

to listen to other people and he definitely changed my mind fundamentally actually about property design and how it's so easy to leave that to other people when in fact like wealth you should take full control for yourself.

speaker-1 (02:36.794)
And a recent conversation that you had between yourselves where that theme of custodianship really resonated with Julian and you'll hear him refer to that throughout today's conversation.

speaker-2 (02:46.892)
I was interested because I usually have a chat with people to see if they'd be a good fit for the podcast and immediately could see that. He was very humble himself when he asked me about what wealth builders do more specifically. Obviously, I've been in his ecosystem for a while and we've been connected for a while, but we've never really had a decent conversation. We had about an hour together. We kind of identified, and I think he mentions it.

We are both creative individuals, but coming from completely different angles. And I'm not sure if I could paraphrase it, but it's almost, you're the first person who's convinced me that pensions can be creative and I need to look very carefully at that. And let's hope he does do that and follow up. But I think he's a man that takes things very seriously and wants to get the best result, not just for him, not just for his family, but for the end user. And I'm sure you'll be fascinated to.

Listen to what he has to say.

speaker-1 (03:45.727)
So let's head on to our conversation today with Julian Maurice.

Julian Maurice is an interior designer, educator, and property investor who sees design as an act of custodianship rather than decoration. And with over 25 years of experience across letting, sourcing, refurbishment, and asset management, his work sits at the intersection of buildings, behavior, and long-term performance. And specializing in shared and high-use environments such as HMOs, serviced accommodation, and build to rent, Julian focuses on clarity, durability,

and commercial intent, believing the true measure of design is not how it photographs, but how it performs years later. And through Icon Living, he trains and advises property professionals to take control of design decisions that quietly shape income and maintenance and legacy. Julian, welcome to Wealth Talk today.

speaker-0 (04:42.318)
Thank you, Christian. It's a real honor to be here.

speaker-1 (04:45.004)
And I hope the introduction did you proud there.

speaker-0 (04:47.941)
I think it explains it pretty well.

speaker-1 (04:50.04)
Fantastic. So Julian, you've said that you'd like our listeners to see design in the same way they are encouraged to see pensions as something that's too important to leave entirely in other people's hands. And what do mean by that exactly?

speaker-0 (05:02.03)
This was triggered by a conversation I had leading up to this podcast with Kevin, and he was talking about, we were totally opposite ends of the spectrum. A designer is a creative person. think somebody that's into finance and things like that has a totally different mind, but we were both speaking the same language and the word custodian came up. And I did a wealth analysis of my own recently and the word custodian came up. And essentially my

investments for my future, for my pension. So it's a product that the intent of the product is the same. It's like a financial fortress, part of a long-term strategy. That was my starting point when I invested my own money into property, which led me to think about design very carefully. I wasn't a practicing designer at the time. I was more a contractor, project manager with teams of contractors. And most of my work was for

property investors. And one of the things that I felt was important was to think about longevity when thinking about the design. So when doing the specifications, thinking about materials and products that would be easy to maintain and make sure that the product was easily maintained and easily renovated over time. would, it would be a, what would be the word rather than thinking about design as what it looks like.

It was thinking about design of how it's supposed to work. And that's both for the user of the product, which in our case is a home, and also thinking about it from the other user of the product, which was me, the investor, and how is it supposed to work for me? And how is it supposed to work for the person living in it? So for me, the user, the other user of the product, it needed to perform over a long period of time. you know, performance is renting easily.

having happy tenants that pay me every month without aggravation, minimal maintenance and repairs. And if I do have to do maintenance in the future, they're fairly easy to do. And that was the kind of starting brief for myself. When I'd worked for landlords, however, and this is probably why I'm here, that was the last thing on their mind. It was really a very surface level conversation about, just design it so that it's got en suites or, you know, it's got to be student property.

speaker-0 (07:26.38)
I'm not going to give you any other instructions, you know, and I do want it at a reasonable price, which was one of the reasons why I stopped doing project management was because I used to do very thorough itemized quotes, fully itemized with a proper spec. And most of the time the client would just take that spec to another builder and go beat the price. And that was it. So I'd done all that hard work against myself.

For me, investing my own money, design became very important very early on. Yeah.

speaker-1 (07:59.758)
And our conversation today applies to residential and commercial investors as well as developers.

speaker-0 (08:07.114)
My experience comes by working on HMOs and working with clients doing commercial finance on HMOs. My only experience with commercial business premises is my brother who inherited a industrial unit in Brighton many years ago when my mother passed away. And I had a conversation with him very recently saying that he wanted to get rid of it because the tenant had decided to leave. About commercial value was he was saying that it's not gone up in value because the rent hasn't increased.

So I've been more interested in the domestic product because in my experience that's the one that has greater capital growth potential over time. I think the difficulty with domestic is how do you make a profit from it, which is where a lot of landlords invest in HMOs and turn them into commercial products. And this is where design has a huge impact.

speaker-1 (09:00.782)
And I should add to the list of many things that you've done is a contributor to YPM magazine for 10 years, is that correct?

speaker-0 (09:07.938)
Well, I'm actually working on an article for them today. So I do the odd article. I think they come to me when they need some space filling and I do an article on, you know, they say, what do want to write about? And I'll do an article and it's always design related. do a training course with them. take a training course where I teach investors how to be design thinkers. So yeah, I a lot of work with them.

speaker-1 (09:32.01)
going to reel off some of the benefits here. Our listeners know what we're going to be talking about today, how it can impact them. We're talking about benefits being increases in profit, increasing the commercial value if we're talking HMOs, the longevity you mentioned, reducing maintenance, turning underperforming products into high-performing products, and passing on this aspect of legacy and custodianship, passing on quality products to your children and grandchildren.

Would you say those are the key benefits really?

speaker-0 (10:02.894)
Is that all? that the only bit of It's multi-python thing, we've found with this spoon, sir. You actually spot on. I don't really need to add anything to that because I've worked as an estate agent, a letting agent, a sourcing agent. I've invested myself. I've managed myself. And I'll just go to the kids thing because this is relevant to me because I've got two boys and I've kind of feel that I would like to be able to pass on what I've got.

to them, that's where this word custodian comes in. I'd like to get an income from it, but it would be nice to able to pass it on to them. Now, if you pass on, in my experience, a lot of properties that are owned by landlords deteriorate quite badly over time. So you have a, if you've got a commercial product, if you've got a commercial mortgage on a building,

And it starts to deteriorate and it's not managed properly and it starts to get to, it starts to lose its luster. The consequences of that kind of, it's like a snowball effect. You then only attract a certain type of tenant. That certain type of tenant then doesn't look after the property as well. The property degrades even faster. The landlord then is either faced with two options, either a big refurb or selling, or you just let it get worse and worse and worse. And then you've got this, what is that then, if not a liability?

And what I don't want to do is hand my children liabilities or complex products that they were, because they're not into property. And I would probably ask everyone here, you know, are your children into property in the same way you are, or do they have their own lives? Do they have their own careers? And what would happen if you dump this asset onto them? There was a total pain in the ass. That's not something I would want to do. I don't want to give them complication. I want to hand them something that is an actual asset.

So that had to be thought about when I was thinking about how I was going to invest, what I was going to invest in and how I was going to design it and create this product. I look at it as a product. know, is to me, I would take the approach, how am I going to design this product so that it is what it should be.

speaker-1 (12:17.014)
Yeah, I was just going to pick up on that. The term product, we're referring to the product being the property, not talking about mortgage as a product or anything like that, right?

speaker-0 (12:25.462)
No, but this is the reason why I call it a product is because when I was looking at designing my own properties, where was my reference point? Who could I go to at the time? And this was 10 years ago. Who could I look at the time who was designing them in the way that I thought they should be designed? Nobody. So I had no one to look at as an example for which I could apply onto my own design.

So I thought, how the hell do I design this thing to perform in the way that I wanted it to? Because I had not seen anyone do it. It was just paint it magnolia and, you know, put that land or furniture in it and that'll do. And I knew that that didn't work. It wouldn't work for a, you know, but if I'd have had that same product now, wouldn't work. So how do I design this thing? So I looked at product design. I said, if Apple can do it.

and they can design a phone that today still resembles the original, design, the user interface is still pretty much the same. How do they think about design? And that's the approach that I took. And so I just instinctively now call it a product.

speaker-1 (13:31.65)
Yeah, it's a mindset shift, isn't it, when you change the language like that. So a lot of investors are surprised to hear that properties can quietly become liabilities. You mentioned that. And what are the most common design decisions that cause that to happen over the space of sort five to 10 years, would you say?

speaker-0 (13:49.026)
the lack of them. So they say you don't know what you don't know, unfortunately. Don't want to be disrespectful to anybody, but I would just ask everyone to just consider for a minute what they're investing in. You know, and I don't even like the word investment anymore. I would propose that what they're actually doing is buying a business.

And each property is its own business. You have real people buying this product. Let's forget industrial units because I don't have experience in industrial units. Let's talk about houses. And I would just urge people to think like a business owner rather than like an investor because my conclusion is it is not an investment.

it is a business, it has to be run by somebody it's not like something you can just put money into and leave it and let it mature it's a living breathing thing that gets used, abused, needs maintaining where the mistake lies just to give you an example of this if you look at I live near Bradford and in Bradford there's a couple of quite large developments there that I know of quite well

One of them is Lister Mills, which was developed by a company called Urban Splash. Those two developments are now approaching the 10, 15 year mark and they're unsaleable because there's so many maintenance issues causing problems with management that banks won't lend on them. And until they've solved these maintenance issues and management issues, they will be unsaleable. And the reason being is because developers can build stuff well.

but they sell them and move on. And then it's up to the people that own them then to pick up all the pieces. This is the thing that I have seen over the years is things aren't built to last anymore. And yet we're talking about legacy. And so this is where I think just a bit of honesty and thinking this is a living breathing product and I'm going to be honest with myself here. I want this to be a legacy. It needs to be thought through. needs time and attention to detail to get it.

speaker-0 (16:10.946)
to perform in the way that you want it to perform. And that's really the mistake that is made is the mindset that it's an investment, not a business. And if you do want a hands-off investment, then what are the chances that someone is going to look after that product as well as you would? And I hear the word leverage, financial freedom, all these things used to sell the product when that's just the kind of headline words used.

attract people onto maybe a training course or a mentorship or something, when in reality if you have that attitude you're going to need a huge portfolio to make any money because a lot of it will be dragging itself down you know because through maintenance and through poor build quality and that's the problem that is the problem I just think that that it is not as simple as that.

speaker-1 (17:04.407)
It sounds to me then really, it's all about starting with the end in mind, starting early. And would it be fair to say that sometimes you're quite critical of the idea that the architect or builder will sort it, that sort of mindset, right? And you need to be in control, not abdicate that control to an architect, for example.

speaker-0 (17:21.666)
The assumption is, is that if you're paying somebody to do a job, they're going to do it right. You don't need to have any kind of responsibility to intervene into the process. It's an assumption that if you tell an architect, want this house turned into a six bedroom on suite HMO, that it's going to actually be a product that works.

Weirdly, I've been the last few jobs that I've had where clients have passed me layout drawings from architects. The moment I've started to populate those drawings with furniture and think about the practical side, how is somebody going to live in this house when there's only one kitchen unit for storage in the whole kitchen and there's no room for a wardrobe in the bedroom because you've made it so small.

through putting in the ensuite that there's no room to put a wardrobe or you know it just won't fit or you've got to climb over the toilet to get in the shower.

You'd be amazed at how often I come across these issues and the plans will get drawn up to past planning regs. The plans will have lots and lots of cut and paste elements that show building regs, which is very important. Obviously it has to comply with building regs. It has to pass planning, but then, know, brutalist, brutalist, 1950s and 60s housing estates, they passed building control. They passed planning.

and they became absolute hellhole slums.

speaker-0 (18:57.932)
That's architects. Don't assume that the architect is going to build something or design something that is going to be nice to live in. Then you've got the builders who, with a lack of any instruction, are expected to create this product that you want to be a legacy. When the builder wants to get in, do it as cheap as possible, do it as quick as possible and get out. I don't know whether you've heard of the production triangle.

Okay, well the production triangle is used by engineers. If you go into, you know, I've seen them on, seen them in factories where you've got engineers and you'll have this production triangle. I would ask everyone to just Google the production triangle. It's a triangle with three corners and it's got good, fast and cheap at each corner. Good, fast and cheap. Pick two, you can't have all three. That's the production triangle. You can either have it really good quality. You can have it done quickly, but it's not going to be cheap. You can have it done

cheap and you can have it done quick but it's not going to be any good. Quality won't be there. So you've got this builder that's going to be doing it fast and cheap. The only consequence of that is it's not going to be a good quality and that's who you've got designing your product and that's who you've got creating the product. Who's responsible at the end of the day when it's built and done for that product? Yeah so this is why I had to take control of the design process because I knew that the architect needed looking at

his work needed to be looked at. The builders needed to be instructed on materials. I needed to have a visual because it's a product that needs to sell itself. And so I had to take control of the situation and design it. then through doing that, I'm now teaching what I've learned and talking about it.

speaker-1 (20:42.05)
Really, we're talking more here than just choosing the right color of paint and better staging. We're going deeper. Layout, electrics, scheduler works. Why does this order matter so much?

speaker-0 (20:53.452)
Let's repeat that, let's fire that back at you. So we're talking about layout, flow. Why does that matter? Electrics, where to charge your phone? Where are the light fittings? What lighting do you have? That's another question. Schedule of work. So this is basically how to tie down a builder to a price, to make sure that he's pricing up the things that you want correctly. Why are they important? So why is flow important? Well,

Let's take an HMO, for example, an HMO is a house with rooms in it where people that live in those rooms, that room is their home, not the whole house. The room is their home. So everything you would do in a house, you now have to do in a room. If you design it to just be a bedroom, then it is not fulfilling all of the functions that it's probably going to have to perform. So you need to think about that.

when you're designing the layout. The kitchen, I just spoke about kitchens. just imagine what a badly designed kitchen is going to look like in five years in an HMO that's commercial, which means more than six people using a kitchen together. And what that might look like if it's not designed right, or what it might smell like. Now, a smell has been recognized as being a contributor to an aesthetic, to people's enjoyment of, or their experience.

you hotels you sent to make the experience nicer, shops you smell to enhance the customer experience. Just think about how most properties smell in the rental market. So that has an effect on how commercially valuable it is. You know, if you've got a house that stinks of rotting food, where all the corridors, because they've had kitchens fitted in all the bedrooms, have got grease marks all over the flooring because people are dragging food waste around the corridors.

and it just reeks of oil, of fried food or microwave curry, then what is it going to be worth to somebody? And certainly as a legacy, what are your kids going to think about this thing you've added to them? So that's flow and that's looking at how a kitchen is designed and how waste is managed. So that's just flow. When it comes to electrics, you've got a standard spec for builders in corridors is cool light LED, I call them boob.

speaker-0 (23:14.104)
boob lights basically they're just cheap plastic lights with fluorescent bulbs in them and white light bedrooms with inset spotlights all over the place kitchens with inset spotlights and that's your lighting tenants don't bring in their own lighting they just rely on what's there so imagine going to bed and all you've got is either really bright light shining down in your face or nothing you've got window blinds that let in light in the morning so you can't get a good night's sleep

You know, all of these things affect the user experience, but are not considered by the builder, by the architect. They're not even on the, well, they might be, the lighting might be on the drawing, but you know, it's not the best way to approach a home, the design of a home. And that's what we are ultimately creating. And we're talking about function. For me, the product has to make money over time, but it won't make money over time unless it is the product it's supposed to be.

And it's supposed to be a home for everybody living in it. And if it doesn't feel like a home, then you're going to get higher churn rate. And if you're a property manager, you know that churn rate is the most awful thing to have to deal with, especially with the changes in the rental laws coming up. know, it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't. And if you keep on having to change tenancies because people aren't happy and move on all the time, then you're much more likely to have problems with tenants.

So the knock-on effect is huge. So when we talk about you talking about color and cushions, that's staging. It is important. Staging is what sells the product. But then imagine if you've staged it beautifully and a year later you've got a stinking house with a smelly kitchen that's full of crap. You've got these lovely pictures that don't represent the product. It's like that's over-promising and under-delivering. So this is what I'm having to deal with every day.

speaker-1 (25:11.086)
I've heard you share an example before where you've mentioned a £2,000 uplift in Finnish delivered an additional £150 per month extra rent. Well, you know, can do the maths on that, can't you, to see the benefit?

speaker-0 (25:23.374)
Interestingly, one of my, I would call her business partner, Michelle, who works with YPN magazine doing the training, she has quite a substantial portfolio of HMOs, commercial HMOs. And when I told her that an increase of 150 pounds a month represented a 75 % increase in profits, she said, no, that's not right, Julian, that's not right. Can't be 75 % increase in profits.

But I said, well, what percentage of your turnover is profit? What percentage of your turnover is profit? And it's amazing how many landlords I asked that question to, who look at me with a blank expression and say, well, I'm making that much. Okay, so what percentage of your turnover is? And they don't know. Would you buy a business if you didn't know how profitable it was? Like, that's how much I'm going to have to spend. Those are my running costs.

That's what I'm selling the product for. That's my profit. And you'll be amazed at how many people I speak to who don't know what that is. And when I ask them, well, what percentage of your profit is your letting agent taking? And they say, well, 12%. I go, no, no, that's the percentage of your turnover that they're taking. What percentage of your profit are they taking? And they go, and when we work it out, they're actually taking 80 % of their profit.

because their profit is only 15 % of turnover and the agents taking 12 % of it and they don't realize this. So back to the question, which was about what was the original question? Cause I kind of went off on a tangent. Go on. know I'm on the right path.

speaker-1 (27:03.954)
Yeah, was, looking at big areas, the starting with the end in mind process. the layout, the electric schedule works and why that matters so much.

speaker-0 (27:13.55)
Yeah, well then again, we're talking about uplift profit, 150 quid increase in profit. So when I spoke to Michelle about this, her room was originally on at 550. We made it look nicer, did it the nicer design and it then rented at 650. So that went from 500 to 650. That's a 75 % increase in profit and she's gone, no, no, that's not right. And when she looked at her numbers and she looked at her costs, her finance, her bills,

her all the other costs she realized that she was making around about 200 pounds per room. So her profit was 200 pounds. And then she'd gone and increased her profit by another 150 pounds, because anything over that is pure profit. So then she went, she realized that she'd just by making the rooms look nicer, increasing the rent, she was able to she was making a 75 % increase in profit. And she thought, well,

How's that going to affect the commercial value? So imagine if your rents profit goes up by 75%. How's that going to affect the commercial value? Just on her 10 bedroom HMO, when she refinanced it in a nicer, presented better, and this was in Cheshire, this is not in London, this is Cheshire.

It was an increase of 92,000 pounds in its value. She was able to pull out another 92. Now I'm not, I don't do things that way. I'm not a commercial, I don't do commercial HMOs myself. But as far as I understand it, that's tax-free money.

Because it's alone.

speaker-0 (29:00.942)
So that's all I can say. And the only thing that did that was how it looked. It wasn't any other magic. She didn't do any kind of creative strategies or anything. She just made the rooms nicer, presented them better, took better pictures. And this is what I was talking about staging. That's what staging has helped. There's evidence to suggest that staging itself increases the value of a room or a property by 10%, something like that.

Now if your profit margin is only 15 % then an increase in 10 % is huge.

speaker-1 (29:35.0)
For anyone listening then who's got an existing portfolio, where's the quickest return on redesign? Is it improving what they already own? Is it buying new assets?

speaker-0 (29:44.494)
Yeah, never buy new assets because you've still got the old assets that are dragging the new ones down first of all. You can have to go back to the old ones eventually. No, I mean, I've done a bit of research on this. The difference between spending money doing up existing assets compared to buying new ones. The difference in ROI is insane. I'm not brilliant with numbers, but let's say you have to spend. I was conscious of the fact I rubbed my nose then, so I don't want to lie.

Let's say you were to spend a thousand pounds upgrading a room or fifteen hundred pounds upgrading a room. The consequences of that could be that you don't have to wait as long to find a tenant. So you might it might take you a month or two to rent a room if it's not that nice. So that's a thousand that could be a thousand pounds right there. That pays for the that pays for the work right there. Ignore ignoring that if you uplift

It depends on what profit you're making. you know, if you're a leveraged landlord, it's unlikely you're making more than about 15 % profit on turnover. And it's very likely that you can increase your profit on that room by at least 50 % profit. It might not seem that much.

But peace of mind is also something that comes as a consequence of that as well, because you find better tenants that want to look after the place better. And therefore, again, your property has got better longevity. Because if you've got tenants that abuse the place, you you see lots of landlords complaining about the fact that tenants trashed a room. Well, when I look at the design of the room, it's normally a pretty low quality room that they've trashed. You don't...

really normally get high-end room, a nicely presented room where you've been a bit more discerning about who you let in, being trashed. So peace of mind to me is the big thing, not just again, this is maybe another thing that maybe people don't quantify when they're investing. Are you getting peace of mind or are you getting a headache? And what's that worth? And again,

speaker-0 (31:58.55)
That's to me that you can only a piece of mind comes with a well designed product.

speaker-1 (32:05.336)
sticking with tenant type, should design differ when you're targeting tenants versus short stay guests and why did many investors get this wrong?

speaker-0 (32:15.116)
Yes, 100%. There's a big difference between serviced accommodation to me. Big difference between serviced accommodation and let's say a long term let. And there is a difference between furnished and unfurnished accommodation as well. So just let's take HMOs and let's take serviced accommodation. And there are lots of different types. So I am very aware that, you know, one shoe doesn't fit all.

So this really does depend. I mean, I get this quite a lot where people say, I want to appeal to contractors if I'm doing service accommodation. and I don't really think about my audience at all. I just know that they on suites if they're HMOs. I don't have rooms with on suites. I've got one on suite in my portfolio and the rest of the rooms are not on suite and I don't have any problems renting them out. But in terms of the experience.

I mentioned that an HMO room has to fulfill many functions for the person living in it. So for an HMO, I think when you were asking me the question, you were thinking about more how it looks rather than how it works. For an HMO, it's more about how it works and how it looks. So for me, there's a great designer called Dieter Rams, who is my kind of guiding light when it comes to HMO design. And he set these 10 principles of good design.

that I follow as if they are immovable laws that cannot be, you you can't go, well, what if I change it slightly? No, you can't. It's like somebody who, you know, who knows what they're doing and has got a huge track record telling you this is what works. And those are the principles that I follow when I design an HMO. These are longevity, functionality, usability. Those are the

principles behind the design and it's very much a product and one of the things that he says is good design is as little design as possible. That's his one of his principles and I think that's very true when it comes to HMO design. You don't want to over design it. You don't want to be obtrusive with the design. Somebody needs to feel comfortable the moment they move in and the less fussy it is, the more functional it is, the better. So I'm a bit of a minimalism in that respect, but you've got to think about so what

speaker-0 (34:39.896)
What is somebody going to need to do in this room? They're going to probably want to eat, sleep, watch TV, write emails, maybe have a make-round once in a while. They want to feel warm. It's got to feel cozy, but it's also got to be able to perform all these other things. Colour is the last thing I think about, but if it does need any colour, it's normally quite restrained. Any colour that I would use would be in the communal spaces to make it. Or wow, when you walk in. But the rooms themselves, what if the tenants got Laura Ashley bedding? Or

you know, likes, manga, comics, you know, that's who you're, that's what you're dealing with. Those are the different, and what if they have no taste whatsoever, you know, and they're just bringing in duvets from range and duvet covers from range and they don't care, you know, you, you, you don't want to make it so they feel uncomfortable. With service accommodation, let's just take holiday, let's, let's just take short breaks or if you're going away for a quick break.

I would say that a discerning customer, not somebody that's going to want to have a party there, but somebody that's going to have a nice break away, is going to be looking for an experience. I'll give you an example. I love when you see a nice Ferrari or a Lamborghini. You admire it. That's lovely. Would I want to own one? No.

It's the same with, think, serviced accommodation if you're doing an experience. Your home wouldn't probably look like this, but that's not what somebody wants. They don't want to go from their home and go to a place that's not as nice or that's the same. I mean, you you want something that's a bit more of an experience. And what I've noticed with serviced accommodation is the ones that are more... I'd use the word boutique to describe it. The more boutique the project, the higher the value. I don't mean like, you know,

know a certain style what I mean is it stands out by being unique.

speaker-0 (36:41.9)
It's not done to a method. It's not like copy and paste holiday in. It's, that really stands out from the page. And that's what you want to try and do if you're doing service accommodation. And again, because there's more and more, it is a competitive market space, service accommodation. you know, if you, and not only is it competitive, but people give you a grade at the end of it. And so,

Again, I would say to everybody doing service accommodation is live in it for a week.

So make it look nice, do it up, and then live in it for a week. Because you'll find lots of things that annoy you. How the hell do I use the bloody kettle? Where's the heating control? Blimey, why is the heating coming on at four o'clock in the morning? I can't find the key thing because it's dark and I can't press the... Or the TV doesn't work. The Wi-Fi shit. All of those things will affect the experience and people will mark you down on it. My partner had a...

service in near Whitby. And it wasn't, she'd done it up years before. It wasn't the most amazing looking property, but when guests arrived, they had a little welcome basket and she made them feel welcome. And they came in and if you need anything or she'd ask them, you having, is anyone having a birthday? What's the reason for your stay? And if they were coming in, was somebody's birthday. She'd give a little birthday cake and whatever. And she would get constantly comments where guests made us, hosts made us feel really welcome. She had left us a lovely

welcome basket, the products in the bathroom were wonderful. You know, it wasn't the best property, but it was the best service. And so I think that's why it's called serviced accommodation, because it does rely on a level of service. you know, there's many things that can affect its value in serviced accommodation. It could be how it's run, how it's cleaned. That's a proper business there. Again, if you think I'm going to invest in a service let and I'm going to leave it to somebody else.

speaker-0 (38:47.746)
How long is that going to last before somebody does it better? Or how long is it going to last before you get a complaint from somebody because it's not been done right? Or is the person not been available on the weekend and there's been a leak or whatever it might be and you get marked at a one and that takes your grade point average down and then you're lost. I did another bit of research on Airbnb and it talks about super hosts and guest favorite. If you become super host, your profit margin goes up by 60 percent.

according to research. So that relies on good quality product and service. And so that's all part of the design. You know, with me, even with run with an HMO, the maintenance and the management are part of the design. They're part of the success of the design. And this is where I just really annoys when people just talk about leverage. Because you then you kind of take yourself out of that situation, go, well, I'm not.

I'm not going to be a part of that. I'm going to just think it's going to assume it's going to be left by other people that are going to do a good job. And I hate that word.

speaker-1 (39:54.67)
So you teach this and have been teaching this for many years, Julian, and you speak at many property events. I'm sure many of our listeners will be familiar with you and will have met you and even learned from you. Tell us a little bit more about what listeners can gain from perhaps some of your training sessions.

speaker-0 (40:11.566)
Okay, it depends what they're looking to achieve So I'm assuming that most people that come to me for training are not do not want to be designers You know, they want their product to succeed. That's really what they want. I said that you don't know what you don't know and So if I was to summarize what I try to do is I try to get people to know what they don't to be aware to be designer aware and to

to be design led. So it's like Steve Jobs wasn't a designer. He was a businessman. He was an entrepreneur, but he was a design led entrepreneur. And there's something called the Design Value Index. Now, if we've got a whole load of investors listening to this, there is something called the Design Value Index. And you might want to look up the performance of the Design Value Index, because I think it's an index linked fund where that

that fund invests in design led companies. And how well does that fund perform compared to companies that invest in non-design led companies? And it outperforms non-design led investments by 200 % over a 10 year period. So the DVI index, if you look at the, and the DVI index covers, I think most of the major economies. So they've done their study on

all the different stock markets and how their products, how their choices perform against non-design led companies in the SSA, what's it called? The American S &P, the UK markets, the Danish markets, and the numbers are always the same. It's 200 % or above. They outperform non-design led companies. And look it up yourself, Design Value Index.

And these reports are done every 10 years. So this is a 10 year cycle. So that was another thing that prompted me to think about design a bit more was the fact that the design value index shows that design led companies outperform their competitors by 200 % plus. And so that's really what I do is turn you from a, just a non design thinker to a design thinker. And that's really all that you need to do is to be more aware of what you're doing.

speaker-0 (42:35.83)
And to go with it, I mean, you've got to have different hats when you're in business. And I did say that when you're investing in an HMO or whatever, it's a business, it's not an investment, it's business. So as a business person, you do need to have different hats on. You do need to have very cold investment mindset. Does it make profit? No? Yeah. Fine. How much does it make? How can I make this as profitable as possible? That's fine. You have to have an accountant's head.

So you need to think about those or use an accountant in my case because I don't have an account said you need to have a designer head. You need to have a, you know, a people per people skills head. So because you're dealing with people all the time. So design, if you don't have that hat, I teach people how to have that.

speaker-1 (43:23.096)
For anyone who just doesn't want to be hands on, how hands on can you be for them?

speaker-0 (43:28.814)
Well, I do, work as a designer as well. So one of the things that I was going to say, and I don't know whether you can ask me this later, was about, do consultancy work and I work with clients who want me to design the product for them. So that works in several ways. I mean, we just spoke about what if you're an existing landlord and you've got existing rooms? Well, I've just been working with a landlord purely over Zoom where I just, showed me pictures of his rooms and his house.

corridors, kitchen, living room, bedrooms. And I've basically just worked with him, not me just doing the work and then sending it to him, but we have consultations where I'm sitting down with him and we're working through the problems. I'm giving him the specifications. I'm giving him instructions on how to instruct his decorator, how to work with his builder and working with him like that. And that was three two hour calls. And he's messaged me back saying,

I didn't have time to photograph the rooms because the first person to walk through the door wanted the rooms. So that was that. That's the first thing. And then there's other investors that I've got who are one guy that I'm working with, one couple that I'm working with, who's now bringing their fourth property to me. He's an ex banker who decided I'm getting out of that tower of insanity and going to invest in property. I basically, he'll send me these architects drawings.

I then do the layout planning, the electrical layout, materials spec, and then help him hold his hand through the project. If the builder's got any questions, he fires them back to me. We're part of a WhatsApp group. And I just basically, I'm there as the design person in the team because I've done so many refurbs. I've worked with contractors. Don't kid a kidder, you know.

I can talk the language, I'm not afraid to say what I need to say with a builder because that's what they tend to respect is, if it's not right, you just tell them it's not right. And if they push back, okay, you know, don't be afraid of confrontation when you're dealing with a builder. if, you know, that's just how it is, you know, sometimes I get a verbal, a verbal bruising. I'm not proud. I'm not too proud to, you know, have to deal with that. And so that's the kind of thing that I do with other clients.

speaker-0 (45:48.398)
I've done service. I've got another guy that's bought a big, old, it's like a small hotel. He's turning that into a service let in Cumbria. We're going there next couple of weeks to go and have a look at that. So I do, I'm hands on. The training is something I love. I love to, like, I love to present. I just love it.

And so I just talk at PIN meetings. I don't think I ever make anything from it apart from maybe I might get somebody call me up a year later and say, I saw you at PIN. I'm doing a project and that's probably why I do it. But I also, I work from home. Some people think I'm in a car. I'm not. I'm actually in my loft working for, I work from home, work for myself. not, I don't have huge circle of friends. I pretty much keep myself to myself. So I think when I go out into the world, I just like to just be the same.

and standing up in a room full of people. And also, I remember when I was doing, starting off my investment journey. This was during the, just after the credit crunch and things have been very tough. And somebody said, if you want to be good at something, make yourself the go-to person. And I guess this is probably business advice. Now, how better to become, to sell something and sell yourself than to do it in front of everybody and to, you why network?

speaker-1 (46:58.008)
Very wise words.

speaker-0 (47:10.552)
I mean, I used to DJ, I used to be a DJ and that was because I didn't have enough money to go into these lovely big clubs and pay for drinks and everything else. just didn't have that kind. So I just thought, well, if I become a DJ, I can get in for free. I can get all the women and I don't have to pay entry. can just, and I get paid for it. But there, you know, there's, it's all about, it's all about efficiency. Think smart, work smart, not hard, work smart, not hard. So.

speaker-1 (47:28.366)
I'd to do that another day.

speaker-0 (47:37.75)
And I love it. I used to be terrified of public speaking. Terrified! Self confidence. And I got over that because I realised that actually if you can put yourself in front of the room, you're the author.

speaker-1 (47:48.686)
A great example there of what we teach our wealth builders, multiple pillars. IP is something that you develop over time with experience and, as you say, growing your confidence, knowing that you've got value to share with others and then understanding the value there and monetizing that as well, building those streams of income. You've shared so much with us today, Julian. Thank you. It's been some really, really valuable insights. I'm going to ask you a final question. If you had to give a long

Let's say long-term investors, one mindset shift that will help them protect the value of their portfolio, of their wealth over the next 10 to 15 years. What do you think that might be?

speaker-0 (48:27.542)
You spoke about start with the end in mind and I could probably go back to that. I would actually probably say, think of yourself as a custodian, not as an investor. The money is passing through you to the next person and you are the custodian of that wealth. Think of yourself as the custodian.

speaker-1 (48:48.184)
think those wonderful words and a great bridge to my debrief with Kevin, which will follow this. Julian, thank you once again. And I'm sure our listeners will have got huge value from that. If anyone would like to connect with you, see what you're doing online, where's the best place for them to head?

speaker-0 (49:06.316)
Well, I have a website which is www.iconliving.co.uk where I have products and talks about my services. It's probably not the most up-to-date website. If anyone wants me to have a look at what they're doing, I'm happy to do a free. I always say to people, I'll do a, we'll have a chat first. So I'm happy to give people my time free. If they want me to look at quick, have a look at something for them, I would

say that probably best not to just show me property that they've just seen on an estate agent because then I'll just have loads of people coming to you. But if they're seriously, if they put an offer in on something, maybe probably before they've even spent any money, they've put the offer in and it's been accepted. And they might start then thinking, hell, what do I do now? Be a good point at which to come to me and I'll either say, you're making a big mistake or yeah, this will work. And if they want that kind of eyes on.

then come to me and my email address is julian at iconliving.co.uk.

speaker-1 (50:10.126)
Well, will share all the links in today's show notes. Julian, thank you being a great guest today on Wealth Talk.

speaker-0 (50:16.394)
Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Christian.

speaker-1 (50:21.678)
Okay. Thanks to Julian for sharing everything there. And one thing that came up a lot was thinking about property as a product. So if it's designed nicely, it's well thought out, it's built to last many years, et cetera, that will be valuable to you as an investor, but also a better experience for your customer. So I like the way that he thinks about that.

speaker-2 (50:40.834)
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, the word product conjures up different images, doesn't it really, about something static, something kind of monochrome. It just exists in a box. But I think the word that I liked, there were two words I thought that he used that to me were a good distinction. Going back to my point about Kiyosaki earlier on, one is flow. You know, so you need a good flow in the same way as whenever we start engaging.

with people building their wealth, Chris, one of the first actions we asked them to do is to take their wealth dynamic, which identifies which sort of asset are you likely to be in consistent flow with. So not something that goes against your grain, but something where instead of rowing against the tide, you're going with it. And so it is, think, with property that I think you challenged him a little, you, on number of different ways of

Why is this important? And he said, design is a flow, the electrical, obviously being a flow, business is a flow. And you want it to flow to the next generation in a way that they will get excited or if not excited, at least willing to engage in something that they can see is well managed, well maintained, and with a long-term flow in mind. Almost begin with the end in mind, I think. And I think that's critical when it comes to wealth building.

and the different perspective when it comes to property, which is all too often you get what you get and you buy what you buy and you can't really influence it. You might influence the tenant type and you might do some things thematic for you, how you like things to look. But the longevity is just as important. And he mentioned some developers in his local area where the properties have become virtually worthless because there was the

I'm not sure I can remember all the details of the triangle, quick and dirty is not a good plan, is it?

speaker-1 (52:40.718)
That's right. Yes. yeah, maybe one of the other similarities, he talks about the builders and architects, you know, kind of, guess they're looking out for what's best for them. Of course, they've got some care for the client in there, but do you see any similarities with any other aspects of welfare, Kevin?

speaker-2 (52:57.102)
Well, I couldn't agree with you more on raising the point. So we know that traditional financial planning is fundamentally flawed and that most successful people build complexity in their life, often fueled by the very silos they've visited. They've stopped off and they've visited an accountant who looks backwards. They've talked to a financial advisor who's really doing their best they can, but when you operate in a silo, you don't see the whole picture.

I think there's the myopic approach that leads to challenges down the line. We see that, we, as we have started to engage more proactively with our clients of the family wealth fortress, this 360-degree plan, this holistic plan, this almost acting as a family wealth GP, diagnosing only what's in the best interest of the client. No conflicts, no commissions, nothing.

that gets in the way than doing what's best in a holistic way. And I'm proud of having created that, Chris, and I think that speaks a little bit like Julian was speaking, the way that he thinks about property and the way he teaches others. And no wonder why PN, who are a very upstanding organization, have chosen him as the logical partner to join VentureWit in that regard. So yeah, I enjoyed listening to him and enjoyed the previous conversation with him, and I hope many of our members and listeners

Reach out and see what it's all about.

speaker-1 (54:24.746)
We just cropped up Kevin, one of our most downloaded and listened to podcasts right back at episode two or three was the three D's. Are you doing it yourself? Are you drifting? Work with others or be it dynamic? In a way, that applies to so many things in wealth and even here, isn't it? You can learn a little bit, do it yourself. You can work with someone like Julian, have him guide you or just kind of outsource it completely.

speaker-2 (54:49.006)
Yes, that's a good one. Go back to the list. I've forgotten that one. is somewhere around episode two, three. I think it's the four Ds

speaker-1 (54:56.704)
expanded it didn't we from three to four yes

speaker-2 (55:00.204)
The DIYer who most expensive words in wealth building, think DIY, you do it yourself, trial and error. It means you're not humble, you're not willing to be guided. And I think that's a fundamental flaw. So I look out for DIYers and step aside and let them pass by and that's fine. The drifters, you know, those who go around in circles, really in an eddy in a whirlpool of that just keeps them locked in there.

think they're going to do something. They may be open-minded to listening to a podcast or watching a video or whatever, but they're not really going to do anything. The delegators, those who think somebody else knows better, and I suppose that speaks a little to Julian's point about architects. so often that delegation turns into application after a while and you don't get the certainty that wealth is really created when you're involved in your own plan. So that's why we like the dynamics.

which is the fourth one that you're willing both to be willing to help others, but willing to be helped. And I think that's what we're looking for, that open-mindedness when we reach out to people. And it the one group of people I just don't have any tolerance for, Chris, myself, are the arrogant ones, the ones who think they know everything, want to brag about everything, but in the end they are making many, many mistakes that will be compounded over time.

Again, you know, they're the two groups I sidestep the DIYs and the arrogance. And there are plenty of people in between that we're delighted to work with, delighted to help. And anyway, if they're DIYs, they can listen to the podcast and follow up on any of the actions. Although it's a very slow process. How many episodes have we done now? 300 and something.

speaker-1 (56:44.686)
Yeah. 317 or so. Yeah.

speaker-2 (56:47.424)
All right. Well, if you imagine you were learning your wealth by listening to 317 podcasts, you'd just be going around in a circle, wouldn't you? Because we'll go from one idea to the next, to the next expert, to the next. And it's not really a comprehensive, well-designed plan. It's just what comes up, you know, when it's appropriate, we meet somebody like Julian and we think, well, they're good and definitely worth an airing. But that doesn't mean we think that this point, five years down the line,

You know, you should be looking at this five years later, just we didn't know Julian five years ago.

speaker-1 (57:19.598)
So we hope you learned something from today's episode. And if you've got a portfolio property or you're looking to buy even your first property, why not take on board some of the things that Julian mentioned and suggested today. And that might just increase profits and help you in your wealth building journey. So if you enjoyed today's episode, do share it with a friend and Kevin, you and I will be back same time, same place in two weeks.

speaker-2 (57:44.738)
We will, and until then my friend, see ya!

We hope you enjoy today's episode. Don't forget that we are constantly updating our resources inside the WealthBuilders membership site to help you create, build and protect your wealth. Head over to wealthbuilders.co.uk slash membership right now for free access. That's wealthbuilders.co.uk slash membership.