How To Create A Portfolio Of Property With A Single Pot Of Money

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00.086)
If you're leaving big chunks of money in properties that you buy and you're waiting on rising market values or mechanisms of pulling cash out, then you simply can't build the same size portfolio. By refurb refineries allows you to build a bigger portfolio with the resources you've got right now. I've honed and refined and distilled it down over the years. It's so simple that almost anyone can follow it.

Speaker 3 (00:27.256)
Welcome to this week's episode of Wealth Talk. My name is Christian Rodwell, the membership director for Wealth Builders, joined today by our founder, Mr. Kevin Whelan. Hi, Kevin.

Chris, just fresh from a brisk winter dog walk, just listening to the recording you did for a really great guest, maybe laugh. I love this guy. You could just hear the brain, the counterintuitive brain of this gentleman. Not all good guys are called Kevin, by the way. But anyways, just feeling a little of a cold nose. And when you've got a nose as big as this one, you're going to feel it.

Yeah, little bit of Rudolph nose there, but I'm sure you'll warm up soon. And I'm looking forward to our conversation today with Kevin Wright, who's a very seasoned property investor and educator, great value for money. And he gives some really, really good tips today if you are into property. And we'll just say, it must be something about no nonsense, Kevin's that I'm attracted to,

Speaker 3 (01:27.63)
Yes, no, yes.

And look, this as well will just mention for our listeners that this will be our last episode for 2025 because we always take a couple of weeks off for Christmas and New Year. So we'll be back in the second week of January. So we'll take it now to say Merry Christmas to you all. And again, thank you for listening, but we've still got one more episode and that is with Kevin Wright, as we said, he's the king of recycling your cash and he's going to talk to us today about B, which stands for buy, refurb and refinance.

And we know Kevin, don't we, that most property investors run out of cash before they run out of opportunities.

Well, they don't run out of opportunities, Chris. They've run out of ambition. There's millions and millions of opportunities. I'm going to take issue with the point, but I get you didn't want to steal his thunder. Most people run out of money before they fulfill their ambition to become completely financially independent through the use of property as a source of recurring income. think that would be a more articulate way and a more succinct way of framing that. I like the fact that, well, as you'll hear,

Kevin is not new to anything. He's a seasoned pro. I love the fact that he's got lines. Those of us who've been around a long time create our very own language, create our own thinking processes, create our own paradigm shifts for people. And if you listen to Kevin for any length of time, you'll get three or four paradigm shifts. And a paradigm is just a way of thinking, right? So he will get you to think differently.

Speaker 2 (03:04.204)
And that's a good thing because thinking differently doesn't mean he's trying to persuade you he's right. He's not saying anybody else is wrong. He's got some strong views and I appreciate those views. He's got some strong views on educators. He's got strong views on networking meetings generally. So he has some strong views, but those views come from a place though of seriously good intention to help people get a better result than if they don't pay attention to some of the distinctions that he makes.

I learned from Robert Kiyosaki way back, which was the power to become wealthy comes from your open-mindedness to seek the distinctions of others. In other words, let somebody else in your brain, let them say what they're going to say and then process it and see if that distinction does something for you. And if it doesn't, that's fine. And we've had

Over last few podcasts, Chris, many distinctions, we've had people saying property's dead, people saying the stock market is the place to invest, and others are saying, well, he's saying BRR, but he's not saying BRR. He's saying, here's a way to get money out of property to allow you to continue your journey if the limitation of funds is something that's relevant to you. And for most people,

That's exactly right. know, people don't come to property, generally speaking, with multi-millions and they can do what they want. They come with a limited budget, wherever that hard earned money has come from, and they're going to make it work as hard as possible. And Kevin's a great teacher to give you distinctions to help you do a better job of that.

Hopefully we've all warmed up enough now. So let's head on to our conversation today with Mr. Wright. Kevin, you're known for inspiring property investors to make more profit faster with less cash.

Speaker 1 (05:04.238)
That's a pretty good description actually.

Yeah, you're a property investor as well, finance expert, author and educator and widely regarded as the UK's leading authority on bi-referb refinance. And you also say that most people run out of cash before they run out of ambition. And hopefully today you'll explain a little bit more about how to reverse that. So welcome.

Thanks very much. Always happy to jump on and nice to see you.

I used to lend a helping hand, didn't

Speaker 3 (05:41.186)
Let's get straight into it then. So you've said many times, Kevin, that BRR is more than just a strategy. What do you mean by that?

So, well look, a strategy I would suggest is a way to get people to pay you rent for a property that you own. You could control it as well, but predominantly properties that you own. Now, a strategy is what type of tenant do you want? Do you want a single-lens, do want HMO, do want surface accommodation, furnished holiday let, commercial, mixed use, social housing, you know, and any other thing you mentioned. So when you get a particular type of tenant paying you rent, that's the strategy.

People that call BRR a strategy and if there's any trainers out there calling BRR a strategy, I think they're seriously missing the point and here's why. By refurbished finance, when done correctly, allows you to pull most, sometimes all of your cash out of a deal within months of buying it. Now, if you're leaving big chunks of money,

in properties that you buy and you're waiting on rising market values or other mechanisms of pulling cash out, then you simply can't build the same size portfolio. No matter what strategy you're using, you can't buy as many HMOs, you can't buy as many furnished holiday lets or any other type of rental income strategy. You can't buy as many because you're too much of your cash. If you're leaving, I don't know, 40, 50, 60,000 pounds worth of cash in every property you buy,

you will run out of cash before you run out of ambition because no one starts off with millions of pounds with the property, sorry, with millions of pounds with the cash in the bank, which, know, now there must be some people out there that would start off with about a million quid and say, well, I've got all the 25 % deposits I need to build the portfolio I want, but I never meet them. I'm not sure, you know, many people do. And if they are out there, they have an incredibly small

Speaker 1 (07:41.614)
minority, know, 90, probably 95 % or more people do not start in property with enough cash to fund the amount of 25 % deposit they need to build the portfolio they've set their objectives on, whether it's 10, 15, 20, or 50 or 100 or whatever it is. No one starts out with the right amount of cash. unless you

get good at recycling your cash, you will run out before you run out of ambition. And then you're forced to start doing control strategies rather than ownership strategies. I don't decry those, but if you're doing them out of choice, it's a lot better than doing them out of necessity. so simply buy refurb, refinance allows you to build a bigger portfolio with the resources you've got right now, which is gonna be limited in terms of cash or limited in terms of equity.

is pretty simple really.

I don't know, primarily we're talking about residential property here. Can this apply to any commercial situations as well?

I wasn't talking primarily about residential. I sort of mentioned commercial and mixed use. So it works, by refurbished finance works equally well for mixed use in commercial properties and social housing, which of course is a residential property, but being put to commercial use with a commercial lease. It works regardless of how you want to rent a property out and who you want to rent it to. Which is why I say it's an overarching

Speaker 1 (09:16.43)
concept or philosophy rather than down in the weeds with other strategies. It's just an elevated concept that really just enables people to play a bigger game with the resources that they've got.

I imagine the financing may be slightly different and I'm sure we'll come on to some of the finance questions shortly. What led you to become the leading expert in this topic, Kevin? When did it really click for you?

20 plus years broke in every type of finance from simple buy to less, up to mouldy million pound development loans was a start. Being an investor myself for at least as long as that and actually more than that, backed that up and just dealing with property investors and looking at what their biggest barrier was, which is running out of cash before they built the portfolio size portfolio they wanted. Buy refurb refinance isn't a new strategy, it's not.

you know, just been around the last few years. mean, people have been doing it for decades. It wasn't called buy refurbished finance. mean, I've been calling it recycle your cash for getting on 20 years. But you know, it was around before that. It was around in the 20th century. It wasn't really stylized and you couldn't really, people couldn't go on a course for it. Those courses didn't exist in the 20th century, late, know, mid to late 20th century. But the concept was still there. If you go back even further,

Generations of people have built up personal wealth in property by buying a dilapidated main residence, living in it while they refurbished it for a couple of years, and then selling it on for a higher price, and then moving on to the next level of property, and doing that, and then moving on again. So, you know, that's an age-old practice of, you end up with a million pound property with no borrowing.

Speaker 1 (11:12.152)
that you live in as your main residence by successively buying run down properties, living in them each one for a year or two, selling it on and building your cash balance bigger so that you end up with a property that most ordinary people that didn't do that couldn't afford. it's just an adaptation of a very well-established way of doing it. now we do it. I didn't come up with a name, someone else came up with that name and we know.

My brand of ReSarcia Cash preceded the term by refurb refinance as far as I'm aware, but it's become prominent probably within the last 10 years, certainly within the last five to eight years. And it's now the, I guess, the preeminent way that you would describe that process. So yeah.

Yeah. And you've really developed a process. You've mentioned your recycle, your cash workshops and just share with us the kind of people that are attracted to those workshops. is it people from all stages, whether they're right at the beginning to people more experienced?

You know, there's this thing called avatars now, aren't they? People have avatars to describe their ideal client or clients. So I've figured out that I've probably got three avatars. I've got the beginners. They've seen the light about properties is a way to invest and they haven't got questions about committing themselves to building a portfolio on a full or part-time basis. So they've had that transformation, should we say, that paradigm shift.

But they've got a real issue on funding because they've got a limited pot of cash and they know that if they get it wrong and mess up the finance on this first one, it could be their last one because, you know, leaving a huge chunk of cash in will take them years to find, you know, another source of cash, you know, and then you're down the route of borrowing from people privately. you know, despite what many people say, that's nowhere near as easy or as

Speaker 1 (13:13.166)
plain sailing as people make out, some trainers make out. It's fought with potential grenades because you're dealing with people that have got an emotional attachment to a limited source of money that came by a non-repeatable source. So that issue is one that really attracts people to come and say, how do we actually structure property deals so that we can pull most

sometimes all, but usually most of the cash back out and reuse that again and again and again. So that's Avatar 1. Avatar 2, a little bit further along the chain, and what they've done is they've bought typically two to four properties, they've probably put full 25 % deposits down, and they've realized that their cash, whatever cash they're starting with, it's shrinking really fast.

It's usually in the second to fourth property that this realization hits home really hard. And they start searching for a different way to finance the deals because they think, I'm gonna run out of cash if I don't change what I'm doing. And I'm nowhere near the size of portfolio that I want. So that's the second avatar. And the third avatar, a bit further along the spectrum again.

You know, they've actually done all right out of property. They could be full time and in there probably more likely to be part time and wanting to, to elevate themselves up. So they've made it work at a given level. And let's say they've done.

two, three bed terraced semi's properties on single ASTs and maybe they've thrown a couple of HMOs in there. But they sort of feel within themselves there's a bigger gain for them to have a crack at, but they're not quite sure of the steps to get there. So it's how they come along to try and work out how to play a bigger game, having already worked out one way to do it.

Speaker 1 (15:17.59)
So yeah, I think those are the three people and they consistently show up at my events, whether it's my one day events or the next level up, the four day Ninja Investor Program training courses. That's who shows up really.

sure people listening now, Kevin, were definitely there is pricked when you said about getting most of your money out pretty much on the day of completion. So can we walk through as if I'm one of those, let's say newbies, okay, and I'm at your workshop and I've got that single pot of money for my first deal. What would be the steps that you would be walking me through to make sure that I'm doing things correctly?

That's a great question Chris and the answer is seven steps now having been educating people on by refurb refinance for well over a decade and Brokering the our deals for well before that the result is I've honed and refined and distilled it down over the years until I've now made it so so simple that almost anyone can follow it and

You could say if you can count to seven, you can make it work. So step one is buy property that pretty much no one else wants to buy. And if you're thinking, well, hang on a minute, that sounds counterintuitive, you bang on. Because one of my all time favorite phrases is observe the masses and do the opposite. So to really make BRR work, you need to observe the masses of property investors and then do the opposite. There's a lot of trainers out there that will teach you to look for property that needs a minor refurb.

and to probably go down the cheaper end of the market. That's almost impossible to make BRR work. Two reasons, here's why. First one is too much competition. If you're 20 other people, viewing them and making offers on the same property, you're never gonna buy it cheap enough to actually recycle your cash. Secondly, if it doesn't need much work doing to it, you're not gonna get much uplifting value. So you need to be a bit more extreme and

Speaker 1 (17:19.16)
You know, I focus very much on properties with a problem that makes mortgage lenders step away, but make it problems that we know how to solve. In that respect, mortgage lenders are our greatest ally, because they're so picky. There's so many things that they say, we're not lending on that until that's fixed. So there's literally just well over a dozen things that could be wrong with the property that the mortgage lender says, no, I'm not lending.

fix it first, then I'll lend. They're just great opportunities. Now, why are they such a good opportunity? Because most people turn their back on them. Most investors turn their back on them. And these properties tend to sit around on the market for a few months or maybe even longer in some circumstances. And then ordinary people with a mortgage mindset, shall we say, think, there must be something wrong with that. If it's been on the market for a few months, I don't want to look at that because, there must be something wrong with it.

They're exactly the ones you need to be looking at. Because you've got a seller that's now frustrated in varying degrees, motivated in varying degrees, and is becoming more detached month by month from the price they'll let the property go at to the point where you buy at the right price. Now, what is the right price? Well, step two is working out what the right price is, which is pretty simple, really. It's what's the optimum value if you fix a problem?

What's the cost of fixing the problem? And what's the decent margin to make for going to all that trouble? So optimum value, less cost, less margin is your price.

What is a decent margin in this day and age, would you say, Kevin?

Speaker 1 (18:59.886)
I think a decent margin is 20 % of the optimum value. I think that's reasonable. It's not excessive. Sometimes you might find a deal where you can get more than that. Sometimes particularly larger properties, know, 500 to a million, you'd probably take 15 % because that's still pretty chump.

you see most investors getting those calculations wrong?

Great question, great question. They get it wrong because they're hooked into the asking price and they base everything around the asking price. the asking price, I come up with these phrases from time to time and here's one on this. The asking price is often the figment of someone's imagination. It's just like some seller thinks, I'd like to get 400 grand for my property and they're completely off the scale unrealistic. But here's the thing.

The purchase price should always be the product of your calculation. In other words, someone just goes, I think my property is worth 400 grand, but you say no, because of this and this and this, it's never worked more than 320.

I heard you make an interesting point when you were speaking with Guillaume on property filter and you were saying the buyers hold the cards, right? You hold the aces because you can take your pick, right? There's plenty of properties, but the seller has only got the one property to sell.

Speaker 1 (20:18.094)
Well, you know, this is such a truth, you know, and the phrase I use is buyers hold a handful of aces and sellers had a handful of twos is the actual phrase. yeah, all you do because how many properties could you as a buyer offer on dozens, hundreds even? And you're absolutely right. How many can the seller sell? Just the ones they own or just the one they own. If you detach emotion from it, the seller is going to be highly motivated around the price or highly emotional.

around the price that they sell because it's their thing, it's their asset, whether they live in it or whether they rent it out. It's their thing. But as a buyer, it's a complete business transaction. If you bought off, if property number one that you offered or property 51 that you offered over a given period of time, or any one of those in between it, and you're making the same sort of margin on every one because you know how to price them up right, does it really matter which number drops and the seller says, oh.

I'm fed up. No one's going to give me the price I want. I'll sell it to you. You made an offer. I think actually I've come to realize I didn't want to, I didn't realize it was so I thought my property is worth more than that, but no one's, no one's buying it at the price. I think it's worth that. So, you know, maybe it isn't worth what I thought it was worth.

you've calculated the price, it's just a matter of making those offers and standing strong.

So, know, step three is making the offer, because we're in these seven steps, remember? Step three is making the offer to the agent. And if you're gonna go below asking price, which often you will do, not because you're trying to lowball someone or cheeky, I hate those phrases, cheeky offers, lowball offers. It's not, they're a fair offer. It's never anything less than a fair offer. Here's what I can make the property worth. Here's what it's gonna cost me to make it worth that. There's gotta be a margin in it for me as well. There's my offer, it's fair.

Speaker 1 (22:07.03)
It's fair to both people. But sometimes we're giving sellers the truth, they're not ready to hear. That's the reality. And it takes them really maybe some months or certainly some weeks to actually process that in their brain and actually accept that we're actually telling the truth. Step four.

is expect to get rejected and don't be disillusioned by rejection. Step four is to learn to embrace rejection. Rejection is a wonderful thing. That's counterintuitive too, by the way. And step five is the critical one. Pretty much anyone can do steps one and four. Step five is the critical one. Because step five is having a system where you follow up every rejected offer and monitor the sellers increasing

motivation and over a period of time watch how their resistance to your offer that you put in gets lower and lower and their reanalysis of what a good price means gets closer and closer to your offer until bang, you're the best game in town. Now, of course, there's gonna be a proportion of those that do sell for a higher price than you're prepared to pay. And the most likely reason for that is it's gonna be a

main residence buyer who doesn't have a margin to make. They just won't find somewhere to live. So you're gonna lose from that point of view. Step six of these seven steps is you've now got the offer accepted, you now arrange the finance to allow you to complete the purchase and now you rectify the problem and push the property up to its optimum value. And then step seven is you refinance at the optimum value you've created to put it on a mortgage and pull out.

as much of your cash as you can.

Speaker 3 (23:57.186)
Let's talk about bridging because bridging is a key part in the process, is it not?

So bridging finance is short-term finance, usually between three and 12 months, although there are some 18-month terms out there, but usually it allows you to buy a property in any condition for all the reasons that mortgage lenders say, don't like that, it's too risky. Bridging lender says, what's your plan to fix it? You give them a plausible plan. They say, great, here's the money, crack on. Just to make sure you give us it back within six to 12 months.

Surely it's so expensive, isn't it Kevin? Bridget?

Well compared to what is the question? Now, you remember I said your step two is working out your prices. Well, working out your prices includes you build the cost of the bridging into your offer.

So here's a question, how expensive is it if it's actually the seller that's paying for it?

Speaker 3 (24:49.43)
It's not, it? Yeah.

So there we are, know, and you know, another key question I say to people, and I've been saying this for years, and you might even remember me saying it from years ago. Look, if you're gonna make a 50,000 profit on a project, do you mind paying 20,000 for the bridging? You know, it's a cost of doing business when you haven't got hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of cash sitting in your bank to play at that level. So bridging allows you to punch above your weight in terms of the...

cash you've got and it's incredibly flexible. The lenders are not as disreputable as often people think they are. I've been involved with bridging for the best part of 20 years. So, and that is literally hundreds and hundreds of loans brokered and also mentored as well. I just want to tell you about a case actually, it's just come to light this week, one of my mentees. Now, he's bought a non-standard construction property. It was X.

local authority. Now, you need to be very careful on that and he'd checked out with the guys in the brokerage associated with what he needed to do to make it mortgageable and he needed to get a certificate. He needed a refurb as well, but he needed to get a certificate to say that the steel construction is still sound. So he bought that, refurbed it, he paid about 700 quid for this steel survey. Not only did he make exponential growth of 80,

for 85,000 pounds, 85,000 pounds I think it was, of value over spend. But by putting a 75 % right to let mortgage on it, he doesn't do fancy rental strategies, he just does a single tenancies to families. And not only has he got all his cash out, but he's got another 20 grand as well. So he's got a free property, he's got 20 grand in the bank, there's tax free of course because he borrowed it, and he's making about 400 pound a month rent over mortgage profit. Now, that's a BRO deal.

Speaker 3 (26:46.808)
Just coming back to, I guess, the process there and taking out that bridging loan, obviously every project is different, but is there a typical sort of timeframe someone might be holding that loan for?

Yeah, most of the time you'll do well to get it repaid within six months because look, it's whatever the timeframe of fixing the problem now, could be, you know, six to eight week, you know, refurb, maybe it's back to break, maybe it's not quite that serious, but it's gonna take you typically a couple of months to get it up to its optimum value and maybe a bit longer. And then you've got, if you're flipping it, cause you know, it's not crime to sell a property. Now there's trainers that say you should never sell a property, well,

There's a truth in that theory because you benefit from the capital growth over 10 or even 20 years. But doesn't mean to say you can't ever sell a property and some properties are better to sell. That they don't make good renters, but they make good purchases. Then you've got to get a mortgage. Now you might get a mortgage in six to eight weeks, but you wouldn't want to bank on that because sometimes they take three or four months and sometimes even longer than that. So you'd want to give yourself, well, at least four months.

to get to get a mortgage. And if you are selling it, well, you've to find a buyer and they've almost certainly got to get a mortgage. you know that and you got a factor in that a buyer could drop out and and you're gonna find another one. you know, I mean, really, it's not going to be less than six months and it's probably going to be between nine and 12 months.

Something to consider there is just any potential overrunning costs and making sure you've got that buffer.

Speaker 1 (28:22.092)
All the people that I mentor are taught very, very clearly, take it over a longer term and pay it back early without any penalties for early repayment. So that's a really clear message. If you think you can pay it back in six months, take 12, just to be safe. you think you pay it back in eight months, take 12, just to be safe. It's not going to cost you anymore.

Any other challenges? What about down valuation perhaps post refurbishment?

Yep, that's a challenge and it's a self-inflicted challenge. Most investors or far too many investors are the architect of their own down valuation. That's a fact. Now you might say, well, that's a bit harsh, Kevin, but look, I spent 20 years or more with mortgage lenders' values. I know how their brain ticks. So I know the things that they actually want to see. And when I say investors are the architect of their own down valuation, it's because they don't provide

enough of the right things that values take notice of. And they put overemphasis on the things that are not really important. Because they think they know what the value wants to see and is looking for. But actually, sometimes they're wrong in less or greater degrees. So again, the people that I mentor, I give them a in-depth guidance based on all those years of dealing, you know, as a broker.

with mortgage lenders' values and seeing where the things they take notice of and the things that they're not really bothered about in terms of justifying and uplifting value. Because when you're forcibly appreciating the value of property in a few weeks or months, you're asking a value to ignore the market. You're asking a value

Speaker 1 (30:14.606)
Look, the market's barely shifted in the last few months. In the area, in this vicinity, it might have shifted 1%. Properties might have been worth more 1 % than they were when you bought the property. But you're wanting a 30%, 40 % maybe uplifting property. So that's a significant uplifting property in the value. And you're asking the lender's value to run along with that. Now, they're cautious people by nature.

So their natural inclination is the down value rather than over value. So your evidence of tangible improvements and that's a great word, well two words actually, tangible improvements. So your evidence of tangible improvements that have forcibly appreciated the value of the property in the time you've owned it, a quick call.

You've mentioned you've been in property over 20 years, Kevin. You've seen the ups and downs, the market coming around. Where are we right now in your opinion in terms of, has BRR been affected by the changes in interest rates and the changes that the government are continuing to make?

I'd say that actually the changes in interest rates have been more than offset by the increase in rent. Now this is tough for tenants, I'm not making anything other than that, but in the last seven or eight years we've seen a massive spike in rent. Some areas in that time frame, the rent for the same type of house has doubled, and in areas that it's not quite double, it's certainly 50 % up what it was six, seven, eight years ago.

What I'm seeing is people making, my mentees that have bought at the right price and not overpaid for the property, they're typically making on a single AST, just renting out to a couple of family or whatever, they're more often than not making four, five, 600 pound a month rent over mortgage surplus. And you go back in the previous decade, the accepted rent over mortgage surplus was 200 pound a month. And we've had a significant rise in interest rates.

Speaker 1 (32:18.894)
from the last decade, but still a margin, positive cashflow margin month by month. So I think that's more than offset mortgage interest rate rises. And you'd think they're about as high as they're gonna be in this cycle. Anti-landlord legislation has impacted over the last 10 years. What I'm seeing is, I would say a changing of the guard, if you wanna describe it like that. Older landlords or more experienced landlords, should we say, have got a pivot point.

of like 15, 20 years ago as saying, it's not like it used to be, it's so much harder, we've lost our enthusiasm, let's just get out and do something else. And that's a perfectly valid point of view. But someone's coming into it right now and if you're watching this and you're about to make your first investment property purchase and you're thinking, well, are they right or should I be doing this? Well, you've got no...

reference point, you've got no line in the sand from 15, 20 years ago, or you can come in with fresh eyes and say, right, here's what it is now. If I do it this and I do it this and I do it this way, I think it's a goer. So it's people that are not past referencing for validity that are coming along and buying properties. Because if you look at some of the figures, you know, something like 300,000 plus landlords have apparently left the market in the last five or so years.

And while there may be less properties to rent and that now, and that's an effect on rental prices increasing or rents increasing, new landlords are coming to the market and they're coming in because they see an opportunity based on a fair appraisal of the current situation and saying, we can still make this work. They'll make it work differently to it had to work 10 and 20 years ago, but they're just making a.

a value judgment and saying, I can see how this could impact our life in a positive way and get us away from the swapping time for money that is every job or every small business. And so I think, yeah, it's just a generational shift is the changing of the guard. And it's people with fresh eyes that look at the issues today and say, right, well, if I'm gonna make this work, I've got to set it up this way.

Speaker 1 (34:36.29)
people that are ingrained in an older way of doing things are less home to change.

Perhaps needing to think more creatively, which of course is your specialist area. I have to go back, Kevin, because I'm not sure we covered the point about pulling your money out on the day of completion. Maybe I'm asking you to share one of your secrets here, but I know you refer to it as the delayed completion bridging model. Are you able to share a bit more about that?

Well, that's a pretty left field thing, isn't it? Yeah. So now, fair to say, if you're watching this in Scotland, then this isn't going to work out there because they have different property laws that don't allow you to do this. I'm guessing, don't know, I know Scotland quite well of course, but I don't know the intimacies of their property laws. But even if he's not allowed up there, it's definitely not encouraged or advised by the solicitors that you're dealing with.

to purchase property, but if you're in Scotland, no, not Scotland, if you're in England and Wales, hey, well listen up, because I was still teaching this when you were helping me all those years ago, and I'm still teaching it now. And I've got one particular guy, Martin, and you might remember him, he was around at about the same time as you, and he just used this method to buy a block of flats, and he just makes, on surface accommodation, that block of flats turns over 10k a month now, and he brought it on.

exchange with delayed completion. it's built a bigger portfolio besides that. So it's essentially reconfiguring the process of buying a property. Now, let me just boil it down very simply. Here's how we normally do it. We agree an offer. We move to a binding contract when we exchange contracts and we wait for a period of time until we complete the transaction. We're now the owner of the property. We pick up the keys.

Speaker 1 (36:33.834)
on the day of completion and then we start the work.

Everyone knows how to do that. That's our 90 plus percent properties of all. So exchange with delayed completion is using those same time slots. We agree a purchase price and we negotiate in between the agreement of the purchase price and the binding offer of an exchange of contracts. We're negotiating with the seller to do it slightly differently. We're gonna agree with the seller that they're gonna give us the keys

when we exchange and not when we complete. And more than that, they're going to give us permission to go into the property, make the alterations and improvements necessary, and then defer the completion until they're finished. And then with a fully refurbed or fully problem solved property,

We then buy it, financing it at the uplifted value we've created. And at that point, now there's usually, and almost every time we do this, you don't have to put a deposit down. You spend some money on the refurb, but you borrow at least 100 % of the purchase price and often more than that. and that's it. And then of course, with a fully refurb property or fully problem-solved property, you can put it straight onto a mortgage. I wanna be honest, because it's very easy for me to

to pick this up and say, you know, best thing since fly spread that type of thing. But that, you know, wouldn't be the truth. Now, the reality is most sellers wouldn't agree to this. again, would agree to it then? The more motivated sellers, the higher motivation they've got and the more they need to sell a property and get it sold rather than hang around for the price.

Speaker 1 (38:27.81)
to get the right price, usually the longer they've been trying to sell it and the more desperate they're getting in terms of finding a solution. Because this property, and we think about this, why do they want to sell it? Because they want to get on with their life. They want to do something else. They want to be somewhere else. They might want to be in another part of the country and they might want to be in another country. And this property is stopping them. It's putting their life on hold and people will only tolerate that for so long before.

It is the magic moment before the price they sell it for becomes secondary.

Now when the price that they sell it for is no longer their priority thought, it's a secondary thought. Now that's the point in time when we can do business.

imagine you have to do a little bit of education with some of the solicitors to get their heads around that as well.

I mean, there are solicitors that are pretty savvy on it. They tend to use the same ones. There's nothing illegal, illegitimate about it. It's just unusual. So, sellers aren't, or solicitors aren't breaking any rules by doing it or on the seller's side by agreeing to do it. It's perfectly legitimate. It's just a little use strategy.

Speaker 1 (39:48.878)
It's probably more common in commercial property, I would say, but then things like options are more prevalent in commercial property as well, really, so yeah.

just one of many creative strategies that I know you've got tucked up your sleeve. that's what I've seen all of the your investor students, your ninja investor students just remind us why they ninjas.

I think because they work under the radar really. They're looking at the properties that most people wouldn't touch because they know that's where the opportunity is. And they're just working counter-intuitively really. I think it's just a phrase that just sums it up really.

You've shared some amazing value with us today, Kevin, and you also host the Property Chats networking meetings. What's the purpose behind these and what typically happens in those sessions?

It's me being counterintuitive again, know, that I've observed the masses of property meetings, midweek evening networking meetings, and I thought, hey, there's a different way to do it. Now, to be fair, I didn't invent this way of doing it, but I've branded it and I've rolled it out as a chain of meetings, which is still growing across the country. So now if you look at a typical midweek evening networking meeting that runs from seven to nine PM, you're just gonna spend all but 10 or 15 minutes of that.

Speaker 1 (41:04.49)
sat in your seat being talked at by a succession of people. From the introduction by the host, from this update, that update, mortgage update, lettings update, a speaker on a subject, however worthy that speaker might be. And there's a lot of speakers providing really good content. It's not a denigration or criticism of them. And then probably about halfway point, you'll have a quick 10 or 15 minute networking break, and then you're in for the main speaker that will take you around to the end of the meeting at nine o'clock.

And in a lot of cases, there'll be a sales pitch for some sort of training or other in there as well. And you you could be forgiven for thinking, well, hang on a minute. You know, how is this a networking meeting when I get like 10 or 15 minutes to do networking? And of course they say, turn up early or stay late. Well, yes, but some people have work or family commitments that make that difficult either end of the evening. So I thought, do you know what? There's a better way of doing this.

That's a better way, that's a bit condescending, I don't mean to be. There's a different way of doing this. So property chats are free to attend. Oh, and the other thing with normal meetings is they charge you 20 or 30 quid usually. So property chats are free to attend. There's no speakers or announcements or anything that makes you sit in your seat and listen. It's just rock up at seven, but before if you can, stay till nine.

bit after if you want to, and just find people to chat to. And one of the biggest things people have said consistently around the country is, do you know what, the great thing about this is I can have a five minute conversation or an hours conversation depending on the alignment between two people. So I think it's just an alternative way of running a networking meeting.

Anyone that's done my training at Ninja investor level can host it. And as we, as we get people want wanting to have a crack at that and be a host and you know, it's pretty simple really. that the big bang and I suppose countless meeting hosts over the years, the big bang is finding speakers. You know, if you've got to find two a month and you know, and

Speaker 1 (43:26.784)
If you're getting someone back, you've to be sure that your membership and not saying, not him again. We heard from him last year or something like that. So there's a lot of pressure to find speakers and then, you know, I mean, maybe there's a requirement to sell stuff, know, sell training for whoever is the provider on. So, you know, it's a bit of task, whereas property chats are promoted by my team centrally and each host will promote it in there.

local town, so I try and make sure that the host does it in their hometown or is close to that. Really simple, propertychats.com. I like these easy links. Propertychats.com, go and see, hop on there. We meet on the first Thursday of every month, everywhere in the country. And I think that's another simplification that I like because with some meetings, the chains of meetings, they're all over the place. First Wednesdays, second Thursday, fourth Tuesday.

All this sort of thing. It's all the same group, but there's this, you real, and you're never quite sure when, when a particular one is meeting, unless you're actually, you know, a regular then go there every month. so the whole chain meets on the first Thursday, then people just understand that, property chats is first Thursday. doesn't matter where I am in the country, property chats is first Thursday. So, you know, there we are. And don't check it out. propertychats.com.

There go. And you've very kindly offered to share your BRR guide with our listeners as well. We'll make sure we link to that in the show notes for today. Finally, Kevin, if anyone would like to get in touch, find out a bit more about your training, your workshops, particularly the Recycle Your Cash program, where should they head to?

Well, I think a good email address, I'll give you an email address if someone wants to have a private conversation with me, but I can give you a website. So it's resalekitcash.co.uk. That's where most of the entry-level stuff, that's where most of the discovery events are around that. My book, BRR Finance, you can get from there. There's virtual three-hour workshops that run weekly. In certain times of the year, I'm doing BRR events. For the people who are a bit more serious about it, there's the Ninja Investor Program.

Speaker 1 (45:35.63)
website and that gives you some more details about the advanced level training that I do. I'm gonna talk to me personally, inspire me at thinkpositively.co.uk. There we are, so.

I appreciate all of your wonderful sharing today, Kevin. It's been great to have you on the podcast and I look forward to catching up with you again really soon.

My pleasure and nice to see you again, Chris.

Speaker 3 (46:02.698)
stuff from Kevin there. Let's unpack that. Before we do, I'll just mention we've had lots of new listeners on Spotify, Kevin. So lots of people now subscribing through Spotify. used to be Apple Podcast was the main one. Spotify is rapidly catching up now. So if you are listening on Spotify right now, you can leave us a comment. If you click on the show, you should be able to see the ability to do that. And we've been getting comments saying, really enjoying the show and one here from

Malenzu saying, stumbled on your podcast and really enjoyed this one enabled me to think outside the box when it comes to writing a book. So that was our recent episode with Karen Williams. So yeah, we love to read those. So feel free to drop some message.

Yeah. And then the thinking outside the box is another way of thinking about a paradigm shift because you hear Kevin talk about old style landlords. People have been around for 20, 30 years and maybe they become bored, tired, disappointed, or they just want to bank the money that some of their early investments have allowed them to make. And so for all sorts of reasons, the paradigm shift to allow you to think differently.

is a really, really good thing. And I encourage everybody just to allow other people into your brain. And the podcast is a good place to do that. And it honestly and genuinely, if you're listening to us and you've never thought about leaving a review, it's Christmas coming up. Give us a gift. 30 seconds. That's all. We've done 300 episodes. What's that? You know, 10th of a second per episode. Surely you haven't done the maths right. And that's fair enough, but please just leave us a quick review. It would mean the world to us to be able to grow it.

And just by the way, we're going to be changing a little bit the podcast style next year. So we're going to be bringing in a focus on female wealth, women in wealth. We're going to be definitely featuring a kindness as a concept because all too often I think there's an association and definitely it's true with property, isn't it? That sometimes you get landlords tarnished with a brush of being guilty and you don't.

Speaker 2 (48:09.954)
Making money is not a guilty thing, it's not an unworthy thing. In some respects, I'm going to take a leaf out of Kevin's book and say that the whole essence of his teachings is for two sides to come to an ethical agreement that both are happy with that leads to a positive result for both people. My definition of an entrepreneur, I think it's we who think differently, we who think

creatively are entrepreneurs. And an entrepreneur, in my view, is someone who is creating an ethical solution to a problem they find, and they do so profitably for both sides. So both sides have to win, and otherwise it's not really entrepreneurship. It's salesmanship or even con-manship or con-personship. And I think Kevin is

teaching people how to do a great job to maximize. And he talks about his seven steps, bit like seven pillars, some overlap with that as well. Not necessarily in the principles, but he's been teaching it enough to have a process. And that process you could follow whether you engage with Kevin or not. And I think the other thing that's valuable to note about Kevin is like this Kevin, we're obsessed about giving things to help people.

So we don't mind if people don't resonate to buy something. We're comfortable with that because we're comfortable in our own skin and we know that we serve people. He calls them avatars and actually so do we, but we serve people who want the help. Otherwise we try and help people give them lessons that they can apply for themselves. so, you know, hats off to Kevin. I resonate with him personally, professionally, and I think he did great value in a suitable end.

to our podcast series in 2025.

Speaker 3 (50:06.434)
Did indeed. And if you enjoyed this episode, then please feel free to share it with a friend and a reminder again of a little Christmas gift. Why not drop us a review if you've been listening for perhaps this year or even the last seven years or so that we've been doing this podcast for six years, perhaps, I think 2019, wasn't

Yeah, 300 and something now. don't know which number it is now. I've lost track.

We wish you a very Merry Christmas regardless and loved having you with us this year and can't wait for you to be back fresh and ready to go for a big 2026.

Yeah, and don't make a New Year's resolution for goodness sake. Don't do it, resist it, because it's a statement without intention, intensity and action. Don't do it. Instead, create a plan to achieve something that is meaningful for your wealth, the wealth of your family and the wealth of future generations. It's your call. So everything we do either helps you get a result personally, so you build your own personal financial independence.

your family's wealth and we definitely major on family. And we love doing that. And also important to me, which is the wealth of future generations of, in my case, the Wheelans, in your case, whoever that would be in your life. So whatever you want, if you need to book in a 15 minute, half an hour call with us, we're more than happy to do that. you've, especially if you've been listening to the podcast and you can say, Hey, I heard you talk about this on

Speaker 2 (51:36.238)
Episode 314, we'll give you half an hour for free. So how would people do that, Chris? How would they send an email to us?

You can drop us an email hello at wealthbuilders.co.uk or head to wealthbuilders.co.uk. You'll see a big button on the top of the website says book a call.

All right, well, that's my gift to you, half an hour for free to help you create a plan for 2026 to be the most successful wealthier you've ever had, to help you build wealth for your family. And those of you who like me want to a generational wealth, how to leave an amazing legacy for the next generation and generations yet to come.

Thank you for listening today and this year and Kevin, you and I will be back same time, same place next year.

See you in 26, Chris. Until then, my friend. See ya.

Speaker 2 (52:26.52)
We hope you enjoy today's episode. Don't forget that we are constantly updating our resources inside the WealthBuilders membership site to help you create, build and protect your wealth. Head over to wealthbuilders.co.uk slash membership right now for free access. That's wealthbuilders.co.uk slash membership.