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Double The Value Of Your Property Portfolio Using Title Splits w/ Harriet Dunn

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The purpose of wealth talk is to educate, inform and hopefully entertain you on the subject of building your wealth. Wealth builders recommends you should always take independent financial tax or legal advice before making any decisions around your finances.

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While Welcome to Episode 141 of wealth talk, my name is Christian Rodwell, the membership director for wealth builders. I'm joined today by our founder, Mr. Kevin Whalen. Hi, Kevin. Hello, Cruz. Good to be with you. Again. You always got a smile in your voice when you

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I know. Well, it's important to to have that smile on the face, certainly when we're recording. But yeah, like to try and keep it on there at all times. Just delighted. How many new members who

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were pleased to come and join us and looking forward to serving those members well, and helping them to chart their own progress from financial insecurity to financial independence. I always get excited when new members join because I know what's coming. And it's fantastic for them. The transformation is just brilliant. Anyway, what do we got today? Something a bit complex, actually, but made simple by a very competent guest today. Yes, that's right. Our guest today is Harriet Dunn, who's the co founder of title And Harriet is, you know, one of our trusted connections. And she's a respected in property investor in her own right, and also trainer in property since 2004. So lots of experience, a background as well as a commercial solicitor for many years. So yeah, she brings a lot of knowledge to our conversation today, Kevin, and, you know, title splits, goes back hundreds of years, right. It's one of the probably the oldest ways of people building wealth for themselves. Well, yes, I mean, from the landed gentry parceling off pieces of land to sale. You know, that's, that's been a wealth building strategy for well, hundreds and hundreds of years, then, of course, you don't need to look far. You know, you and I often meet in London and you take a walk around London, particularly some of the nicer Barton, those massive houses have all been kind of set, you know, sectioned off, and any of the nice, big cities in the UK have done that. Haven't you look around all those big Regency townhouses, three four storeys of all turned into flats, and that started spending. So it is definitely been a method of wealth creation for hundreds of years. But it's not just that as it is not just the big properties, because, you know, they're hard to, they're hard to find they're hard to buy, because they're so expensive. But there are many, many ways that you and I can do that. In our day to day wealth building lives. Yeah. So if you're already a property investor, or certainly property is something you're looking at as a strategy, then pay close attention today, because Harriet's got lots of tips and ideas that might just help you see things in a different light. So let's head on to our conversation with Harriet Dunn. Harry, welcome to wealth talk today. Thank you. Good to have you on. So Harriet, Kevin and myself been speaking to you. And you're the co founder of title And you are a very experienced trainer in the world of property and an interesting background. So why don't we start there and let our listeners know a little bit more about yourself, please? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Right. So yes, my name is Harriet Dan. I'm the co founder of title With Rachel Knight. So my background is that for far too many years, I was a commercial property solicitor, I entered the legal word. So in 1993, seems an awful long time ago.

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Work for many top London firms work for some local firms. I even ran my own legal practice for many years, which was very niche, specializing in property.

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2014, our youngest son, got married left home. And we thought that although we'd always we'd always set in life set quite a lot of goals. And our goal was once the children were sort of sorted to go traveling. So took the brave step walked away from being a solicitor, which I'll tell you felt really hard. Actually, it's You shouldn't be so attached to your labor, really, but I'm afraid in life we often our army. And so yeah, it's retired from being a solicitor, rented out the house and we went traveling. Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's, you know, wonderful and important, isn't it, that we reconnect with the why? Because we work hard. We still do, right. And there's always a reason and for most people is, you know, to have that freedom of choice. And that could mean to spend more time with their family to spend more time exploring the world, you know, and for you, obviously, that was important to just break free and go and explore. Yeah, we it was great rarely, and it's something that a lot people just aren't brave enough to do and I just really wish there would be we lived in Bangkok, he absolutely loved lived in the center of Bangkok.

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For nearly a year, that was amazing. From Bangkok, we traveled around China, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Singapore, came back and thought, that's not enough. And then we went then to America and lived outside San Diego, and traveled around America. Also, we traveled around Australia. So we were weighed in total about two and a half years. And although we were away away, I'm not going to pretend I wasn't also working remotely doing things that I like to do, which was the property training. Because that was the beauty was if you're doing anything that's not face to face, you're in office, as I was, we obviously we have the rental incomes for our properties, but I was still working with people. You know, I love working with people helping them develop themselves improve their lives. It just I was able to do it from a beach in Thailand. I can't believe actually said that. I actually did that. Well, it's you know, I think it's a dream many people have, but they ask the question, well, you know, just how do you do that? So if I can just dig a little deeper, then you mentioned there, you know, income from property. So, you know, what actually allowed you to be able to spend two years you know, outside the UK? And what did how did you manage like your home? And do you know, things like that? Yeah, do you know, and then what the thing that made us to do, it was having it as a goal five years beforehand. And it enabled us that whenever we were planning anything, whether it was a plastic clock, whether it was something within our business, or it was something within our personal life that we knew within five years, we would not physically be living in England, working in England. So it's really silly things like when the car needs replacing, or if it's a leased car through the business, you don't go sign a four year contract, because you're not going to be here. So you haven't got the overheads of the leased car. It's almost it is about planning and organizing what you want to achieve. Also, knowing how much we needed per month to be able to do that, and make sure we could generate that income without being in a day job, or even being self employed having to be physically in one place. So once you know that, and also bearing in mind that you tend to travel most was love to travel to Southeast Asia, the cost of live is quite a lot lower as well. So combination if you've got the rental income, which takes us back to title And because one of the things is I know a lot of people rely on HMO income, but that actually is quite a lot of work. So a vital income plus other income from other other sources. So because also the idea that a lot of us we enjoy working anyway. So if you've got income from something else that doesn't actually have to be sat at a desk. So it's planning that enables you to do it. And then you just have to brave enough to just pack all the Pack and Go. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, really important point there. And, you know, we find every day obviously, we're we're both speaking to different people who on different sort of stages of their journey, but you need to have a clear plan, you need to have good support. And then you just need to be 100% focused on that. And you know, just just small steps doesn't have to be crazy, just consistency. What you just said, Christy is something I say I always say baby steps. So I've always said this, I've said to my children, whatever happens, we will get older, we're not going to not hit 50, we're not gonna not hit 55, we're not not hit 60. Whatever happens, we will get older. So if you do if you think to yourself, I want to go traveling for two years, in three years time that looks like an absolute mountain. How can you do that? But if you think to yourself in baby steps, well, I'll do this this month, and I'll do this that month, then all of a sudden, the it's not a mountain that you have to climb anymore. You just do everything in life in baby steps. Yeah, yeah, agreed. Now, I know we're gonna get into the details of title splits today. But I think it's just interesting to kind of hear you know, how you lead up to that. So obviously, you went traveling had an amazing time you came back, and then you know what kind of what year were we talking about? We're talking about 2017 that we came back I think it was I'm losing track of the years. One thing that I missed so when I stopped being a solicitor I missed the thing that I miss most of all, it sounds a bit sloppy this but I miss my clients. I didn't miss doing the work. I didn't I didn't miss the stress but I really missed working with another person to achieve something and I work closely with all my commercial clients on their development. So I was very much a hands on solicitor as it I'd watched the site. Look at the plans with them. We look at how they could do sale and leaseback we'd look at how they could particularly use their sasses to create long leases. And I missed that interaction. And it was something that I wanted to get back into that. But I didn't want to go back to being the doer if you like that, you know, I didn't want to back on the tools. I also worked with another company where I do a commercial property training of their commercial property trainer and I love that. But what I was very aware of after the crash after the Lehman Brothers went on, was I had a lot of people come to me to help solve their problems after they had gone wrong with property. And I always used to say if only you'd spoken to me before you had bought

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And around 2017. When I came back, I was actually doing a simple property symposium in Las Vegas of all places. And one of my students by clients was Rachel and Rachel's ordering title split. And she'd been looking looking, she did title split of one of our first deals. And she was looking for somebody to help her do it. And I said, Of course, I can help you do it. Because what we achieved through title split is owning fewer properties, which have individual units on individual legal titles that can be sold or refinanced at any time to the open market. But fundamentally is a buy to let portfolio.

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So you squeeze the most out of the asset. But it's fundamentally a buy to let portfolio and done correctly, it enables you a moment's notice to say, You know what, I think, say you've got one building, I don't mind if it's mixed use residential or commercial. And let's say it's in four units. And let's say you never split the title, you just created that multi unit freehold building. And you say, right, you know what, in six weeks, we're going to lock up the house, rent it out and go traveling, and you might think yourself well, but we need to actually need to sell something to have the money. Well, if you have to sell that whole multi unit free whole building, the only person is going to buy it from you is another investor. And they're going to want a discount, you're going to want a quick sale. So you are going to offer a discount. If you've titled split that and actually you're selling for leasehold units and let's just say the our apartment, she just going to pop them on Rightmove, and who's going to buy a beitler investor, the homeowner, some of the service accommodation. So you've just created a taken x at an asset that wasn't that liquid to make it quite liquid.

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And that's fundamentally, I mean, there's more to it than that. There's the increase in capital valuations. The course is more to it than that. But, you know, on our our chat, I think it relates nicely back to that flexibility that it gives you. Yeah, so just trying to keep it as simple as we can, for anyone who perhaps, you know, is just new to this, you know, maybe they just haven't heard of tide split. So don't fully understand, but how it how does it work? And who is this strategy for? Is it fair for anybody or someone who's already got some property experience? I would say it's not I would say it's for somebody who either has already been has properties, been doing it, know what the you know that they're doing, okay. But they also know there's more to it, and they're missing a trick. So the people that actually it doing property, now, maybe not had any training. It works for somebody who's done quite a lot of training and educational property training, and has some properties. But it also if you've taught, but it also works for people who've actually done some good property training out there, but maybe only done one deal. And very often the reason they've only done one deal is because actually either the property is very, very busy. And time to go by individually 30 by two let's to get that financial freedom figure they need. Or it's combination of the fact that they really just don't want to have the hassle of lots of HMOs. So the other way that you might have heard of it, you might have heard people call it freehold leasehold.

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So basically, what we're talking about is either buying some land and subdividing it into separate plots. So for example, I just did a lovely consultancy, called the lady is buying a bungalow, she's going to get planning on part of the land. So and split the title so it could be land, or it's a physical building, where you're going to create more than one unit, as I say can be mixed use commercial or residential. And you're going to actually legally split the title into leasehold. And the other thing that we also look at is common hold because common hold is coming and it's coming fast. So we're future so everything that we do through training and consultation is future proof. So we nicely transition from leasehold into common hold. Yes, and obviously these are all things that you cover on your training with Rachel and our training consultation. Yeah, I know you have a you have a master class I believe so maybe we give give give a like well, we can link to that in the show notes. But maybe just let let our listeners know, you know what they can expect if they want to find out more about that. Yeah, absolutely. So a masterclass is a great introduction, it tells you more about it, it's over two hours. So you know you can really and it's out there for anybody really in who's in the property world either doing it or have the training but just want to get to do you know, I almost describe as the real life and the original training is almost like the degree and when you're getting into title split, you're almost getting into that nuances of your ma but it's for everybody. It's practical. It's really practical. And that's a free masterclass, I will definitely link to that in today's show notes. So anyone who's interested can jump on that. And so, you know, what kind of properties really lend themselves to this and have you got any recent examples so many of our listeners hairier our property investors, you know, they may be sitting on some on a

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portfolio, the unit is just absolutely open to this strategy. So what you need to picture is this, basically what it's going to be depending where it is in the UK. So I looked at a lovely one last week in which was on the northeast coast, actually near the seaside. And it was a beautiful Victorian building that used to be a care home. But it was quite small, I don't want to picture anything to it was actually quite small, it was beautiful. And, and the rooms are big enough. So the secret is it has to be big enough. Or if there is similar cost, the nice starsan Is the shop with the top the shot with the flats above. And I'm not necessarily talking even about converting the shop to residential either even leaving it as mixed use. And then the other one, of course, is you can envisage the tall three storey building, when you walk in the main door, and there's beautiful staircase going up that sort of thing. But also, Rachel, one of our first one that Rachel did was actually two terraced houses next to each other. It was actually just two terraced houses next to each other. That became, I think she created three apartments from that. But depending on the side, it could even be four apartments. So it literally has to be something that you can have probably more than one access to. And, or if you came in the main hallway, it's a big enough. So it's it's something that's big enough, rarely does that answer the question, Chris? I don't know if I answered the question there. Yeah, no, I think that definitely gives her an indication of, you know, people that perhaps have got these properties right now. And they're just not aware that they could do something with it. Well, the I tell you what, they're probably looking at them. And they're probably so mindset in the HMO, that probably over focusing on this is going to be an HMO. And I'd encourage them to step back, literally step back on the pavement of go on Google Earth and think, hang on for a second. Actually, if this was four or five, six apartments, or even two, three apartments, could actually I get a similar cash flow without the hassle of lots of tenants, not emphasizing HMOs. So I'm not at all fantastic, right area, all the rest of the great, but it will talk about owning a diverse portfolio. You have to have a diverse portfolio if I've learned anything big in property. Since the 90s. You have to have a diverse portfolio. Yeah, you will you've been training for, you know, since 2016. Was it that you began now in its current property trends? That's 2004 Oh, okay. Well, I mean, 1000s and 1000s of people that you have trained in that property traces 2004. And I've personally lived through three nasty recessions. Because I, we bought my husband and my husband, we bought our first house, which we bought, what today would be called a gifted deposit option in 1985. So you've seen LC but it certainly in the property, education world, we see that there are always trends, right? There are certain strategies that are very in vogue. And

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you know, how HMOs have certainly been one of those. And you see title splits now as a real opportunity, perhaps isn't is at its early stages. Absolutely. Because what people don't realize is the wealthy, the truly wealthy have been titled splitting since the 1800s. So if you think about it, if you look at Knightsbridge, their apartments aren't there, they're not houses. I mean, if you actually look at the truly wealthy, going back to the literature, the 1800s, or even the 1700s, they were titled splitting.

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Anyone, anyone knows me, there's a bit of a history buff. But the least is that we grant today, actually, we're actually supposed curators copyhold in the 1500s. That's how old this strategy is. And the wealthy just keep it quietly there. And they've literally been doing it since the 1500s. And whenever I was a solicitor all the way back to the 90s. When I qualified in 95, there was a trainee in 93. I was doing this strategy for the wealthy all the way back in the 90s. Yeah, yeah. And you know, on that point, then, obviously, this is wealth talk. So talking about the numbers in the finances, just to try and again, open people's minds as to how this can accelerate their wealth in terms of cash flow, and in terms of capital. So you know, what are the various ways? Yeah, so it depends where you're investing in the UK. By the way, this is an England Wales strategy. It's not a strategy for Scotland because different legal system, bearing in mind the other beauty about Title split and subdividing properties in this way, actually, they work very nicely in them in the in the southeast, and the South, the more affluent areas. Ironically, you're not going to the cheaper areas of the UK, ironically, because your uplift is actually better. So somebody who's based in the south or southeast or just an affluent area of Yorkshire doesn't have to drive or fly for two hours to get to their investment area is much easier to do it on the next in next door. The way I would look at it is as long as your apartment that you're creating is cash flowing, and so it's around 300 pounds. So let's say your individual buy to let

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Within apartment cash flows at least 300 pounds, then it's just that it's that it's just a multiplier of the number of units in the block. So to keep it really, really boring, and say it's four units for apartments in that block, which is so then we have a cash flow of 1200 pounds.

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And then it's a case of well, what money did we leave in an ROI, no money left in the deal.

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So that, that I like that to do it that way. Because then whether you've bought a house in whole, let's cost you 100,000 to buy, but it's cashflow at 300 pounds per month, or you've bought it in Brighton. And it's cost you 350,000 to buy. And it's long as the cash flow and the ROI x. So we've got our clients range, we've got a lovely lady, we're working with her on a project that's 3 million or 3 million pounds. But I've also got another lovely gentleman who are working on his projects worth 150,000 pounds. So it literally does work for both ends of the scale. I think we've covered a lot of the key points there. Harriet, is there anything else you feel that we we've not touched on today, which would be useful for our listeners? Yeah, the other thing, I'd love your listeners, especially those that are quite analytical to look at it, which is quite interesting, which is something myself and Rachel have looked at. If you look at the capital growth of property over the last sort of 20 years and predicting what's projecting forward, it works out around I know we have ups and downs to be looking at about 6% a year really.

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What's interesting is that because a lot of people do multiple unit free whole building, so they create lots of units, but they don't do the legal split.

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Which means that that property is going up in value, probably statistically about 6% per month, sorry, per year. I know it might be less some years. But what they haven't benefited from from not doing the legal split is they're only getting it on the freehold. Whereas if you do the actual, if you actually split it into legally, you're getting the six point increase on the actual units. So when you go on our master class, we've got a lovely flowchart doing it. And the other thing that was for me was a bit like a real lightbulb moment was, if so if I asked you a question, How often do most people put up their rents on their vital acts?

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Probably every couple of years maybe? I would say most people answer when the tenant leaves. So if you go back and look at the statistics rents go up, basically, on average rents go up 2% A year, okay. Capital values go up 6% per year. So if someone leaves a property, a multi unit freehold building, so they physically subdivided into units, but they don't do the legal split, normally what they're going to get is to go out and get mortgages based on a gross development value, a commercial value, a multiplier of rents, okay? But if rents are only going up 2% per year, when you're doing every time you go to refinance your refinance is based on the rental income. But your rental income is only going up 2% per year. Whereas if you've legally title split, and you've got individual leasehold, you've got a choice, you can either do the rent multiplier, or you can do a comparable bricks and mortar comparable more. And if the bricks and mortar is going up by 6% per year, evaluations got more on a title split property than a non title split property, it being the same property, you've got increased annually of 2% or 6%. But if you're legally split it, you've got a choice. And when you say the graphs on the title split your life. Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess final question, what's the biggest mistake you see people making when it comes to tighter splits, Harriet? Oh, okay. The biggest mistake is, number one, not appreciating that you have to do at the right stage, or you pay too much don't do too much tax and not going to a Power team or having people around you who understand how to do it, and not understanding yourself how to do it. So you get Miss directed by poor professionals. Isn't that awful?

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Be Miss directed by poor professionals

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out there. And that's why I think education. So partnership, I think it's great, great what you do at wealth builders, education is so important. Because if you understand what has to be done, you don't do it yourself. You become a very, very good manager of your Power team. And your Power team is your solicitor, your accountant, you're building a mortgage broker. So you become the person with knowledge, and you're almost delegating, and they actually become your team. Spec education. Absolutely. Well, a reminder once again for the master class that you've put together with Rachel. So we will link to that in today's show notes for anyone that wants to jump on that with you, Harriet, thank you so much for sharing everything with us today. Thank you ever so much.

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There's some great points there from Harriet. So we'll dive into those try and pull out some of the wealth lessons as well.

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In a second, Kevin, let's head to Trustpilot. Before we do that, and lots of reviews actually over the last week, lots of them around SAS, but I'm going to pull out one in particular from Peter, who says I was originally attracted to wealth builders, when I came across them in an article on how to take more control of your pension through a SAS, I'm reasonably knowledgeable about financial services but hadn't come across SAS before. Not surprising, really, as it sits outside of traditional financial services. Paul Brooks, SAS director, wealth builders helped me with education, preparing myself to be SAS ready, setting up the scheme and a strategy for transferring existing pensions into the scheme. It's important to realize that it involves hard work and responsibilities. And Paul's knowledge professional and ethical approach has been a great help. Well, I think Mr. Brooks has heard will be slightly in there. And rightly so.

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We know Paul's a good guy. And it's good. I mean, SAS look is a bit like title splitting, right? It sounds complicated, but it actually really isn't that much. It's just taking control of what most people delegate. And we know the difference between the dynamics, those who take action in the delegators, who often hand their money to a third party or the drifters who forget they even got money. And we've got so many cases of people who get connected with money, they just plumb forgot about Crucem, though, so. So this pension thing is an interesting piece. And I think we're going to write a bit more about this, we know how it serves property people really well, because it gives them money that they can use to continue their property journey. And if you can do that, that's a great thing.

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Business owners, whatever shape their business in whether it's, they need help to support their business right now, you know, in uncertain times, or whether they need money to help fuel a scaling, you know, so whether you want to support your business or scale it it's ring fencing money from your profits and your pensions together and making them accessible to the business. So everything we do about services, is really making money accessible for people to do what they want to do, whether it's property, whether it's business, whether it's investing, whether it's cryptocurrency, whatever people want to do, they can do, which is why it's catching on. But just the language that's so dark and sinister, isn't it's as just sounds so terrible. So we're going to be doing lots of new guides for different types of people. And I think we will write one about SAS for women, because we're still so underrepresented in the SAS community by women, only 25% of our SAS community are female. So I don't know what it is that's holding women back from from exploring that, but we'll try and get to the bottom of that. And also, we're going to have a q&a, aren't we, Chris? So kind of an all encompassing, you know, one night of a couple of hours of just q&a on SAS so that you can ask questions, everything you wanted to know about SAS, but we're afraid to ask. So if you want to register for that, how would they do that? Chris? Will be tricky, because I've not set anything up yet. So we'll do that. We absolutely had lots of questions when we did the webinar a couple of weeks ago about SAS. And of course, you know, we have different programs at wealth builders and the Academy is our program that really focuses across all the seven pillars that holistic view. But then we also have a specific SAS program as well. So yeah, you're right. We we decided we'll put together another kind of webinar q&a session. So we haven't set the date or set that up. But we'll get that done next week. And we can share the details. All right, perfect, perfect. But anyway, so back to back to the year of life. I thought it was a good parallel with with kind of what we do we talk about the five year journey don't wait for you know, on average for people to move from financial insecurity to financial independence, obviously some do it a little bit quicker. Some people take a little bit longer, but Harriet talks about the importance of having a plan as well. And I asked her you know, how did she manage to kind of just break free of that, you know, job or business when she was working so hard as a solicitor to enable herself and her husband to go traveling and she said well, they created that five year plan and they set goals and and they leveraged their home you know, brought home capacity into play so they rented out whilst they went traveling. We've seen that before haven't we that freedom of location issue you've done that? Bronwyn one of our coaches done that still in, in, in Africa? Isn't she enjoying doing whatever she wants to do over there and traveling whenever she wants to and so many people done that so interesting that she's done it and come back refreshed, I suppose the the Wanderlust satisfied temporarily and and then carrying on but from a new educational place to try and teach. This is a strategy

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which is definitely a level six isn't in our roadmap? Yes, that's right. And the other thing she mentioned as well, which I totally resonate was the importance of kind of having somebody else there. So not doing it all on your own. And that led to her, obviously forming title, with Rachel as a joint venture. And, you know, I obviously, joined forces review, Kevin, because I'd been working on my own in my business, and it's tough, you know, when you have to make all those decisions yourself. And collaboration is a key aspect of the wealth building process. Yeah, another parallel, I think that she made very loud and clear was, you know, and her unique take on it was baby steps. You know, we we have a mantra, don't we, which is, you could argue it's the similar thing, which is never let 30 Days go by without doing something positive towards building your wealth. And that's a baby step. And so even though we haven't really interacted in training before with,

Episode summary

Find out more about Title Spilts - a smart property invesing strategy. Tune in to learn how you can considerably increase the yield of your property and the size of your property portfolio.

Episode notes

One of the oldest wealth-building strategies in existence - Title Splits – a smart property investing strategy of splitting (or dividing) the title deeds of one building. Our guest this week is Harriet Dunn, a commercial property solicitor for over 20 years, experienced investor and well respected property trainer for over 15 years. Harriet is an expert in Title Splits and growing property businesses. Tune in to learn how you can considerably increase the yield of your property portfolio.

Resources mentioned in this episode