Creating Community and Cashflow: The Story Behind Girls in Property with Athena Dobson

Transcript

Athena (00:00)
You have to love it. You almost, dare I say, have to be slightly obsessed. Because if you're not and you don't love it, the days where the money doesn't come in and the days where you're like, everyone's telling me this is a bad idea, everyone's telling me I'm not going to make any money from this, everyone's telling me to go and get a job, you will end up listening to them. Believe in yourself. If you have a dream and you want to go for it, go for it. And you will have more regret in not knowing and not trying than trying and failing.

Welcome to this week's episode of Wealth Talk. My name is Christian Rodwell, the membership director for Wealth Builders, joined today by our founder, Mr. Kevin Whelan. Hi, Kevin. Hi, Chris. Good to be with you again. Wow. We've got an action-packed episode today. We have the founder of Girls in Property, Athena Dobson, fellow Bournemouth person. So whilst we were recording online, we weren't too far away. And Athena's story was that she actually was in, you know, employed world just before COVID hit, top sales coach, and then suddenly,

life changed for all of us, right? And gave her the time to reflect and actually say, you know, am I enjoying this life? Is this what I want to do for the next five, 10 years? And I think like so many people in the UK, probably across the world, Kevin, that was a catalyst. That was a turning point. And Athena, over the last four or five years has now built a huge brand focusing on helping women in property and Girls in Property is the name of that brand. Yeah. And I think she's absolutely right to observe that.

the catalyst came to so many people in so many ways were with COVID, often with jobs that just simply, and businesses that couldn't be supported because, you know, we were allowed to do certain things. But we saw, I remember you did a podcast, Chris, with Ivor, and he said, you know, he's like, if not now, I'll never do it. So the opportunity when COVID came to essentially take stock,

and find the time to do something different because the catalyst was there is a really good point. And I think she tells a good story and has pivoted in her life, but still keeping some of the values and some of the things that are important to her it. So you'll hear that Athena has bundles of energy and she's the perfect person to be leading a community. And she's extremely passionate about helping women and she has a lot of interesting ideas today and poses the question, what does your version of success look like?

So on that point, let's head on over to our conversation today with Athena Dobson.

Athena welcome to Wealth Talk today. How are you? Very well. Thank you, Chris. Thank you so much for inviting me on. I am excited for today's conversation. Me too. And you're no stranger to podcasts, are you? Having your own podcast too. I know. But you know what's so weird is I always get more nervous actually being a guest than I do a host. Because as a host, I can kind of sit back and ask the questions. when you're the guest, you want to do a good job for...

for the host and you think, what are questions that are going to be asked? So I'm excited. Yeah, yeah, we flip sides. So you're the founder of Girls in Property, which is a fast growing community that's empowering women to step into property and financial independence. And we're going to have a really honest and practical conversation today, I hope, based on your experience of what's only really been sort of three to four years. And already you've achieved financial security, well on your way to financial independence, generating multiple streams of income.

and we're going to learn about how you've achieved all of that today. But tell us a bit more about Girls in Property and about your humble beginnings. Yeah, definitely. Thank you, Chris. So obviously this podcast is for everyone and I want to try and inspire both men and women today and I hope both men and women are listening. But particularly the women listening to this, I want you to really lean in on this as to the reasons why Girls in Property was formed and thinking to yourself about how you can do something like this as well.

So I basically, just to go back to the beginning, so I used to be a premium travel consultant for seven years of my life, which was amazing. I've traveled the world. One of the coolest things I've ever done was I literally got flown to Mozambique, first class, for a 24-hour turnaround to test drive one of the five-star hotels, come back and present it to the boardroom of the CEOs while I was having it in the brochure. So I've lived an amazing life and travel. Travel is literally in my blood. It's in my soul. That's who I am as a person.

And then what happened was, was COVID hit and literally overnight, Boris came onto the screen that we'll all remember in March 2020, and he told us all to stay at home. He says, stay at home, the world is closed. And 30 minutes later, I got an email from my company that said, you are furloughed until further notice, literally.

So what then happened was, I thought, right, I'm going to have to pivot here. You hear this notion of this word pivot quite a lot within business and within property. And you're like, right, how do I pivot? How do I move with this? And that's kind of what you've got to do in situations. You can kind of dwell, but you also got to think, how can I push myself forward? I basically was doom scrolling through Facebook one day and I came across an education company and I went and I did some training with them and I got educated in something called Rent2Rent.

I thought, right, my cash is now gone because this is a commission-based job. How can I start making money? How can I start recurring that money back to me, as it were? So rent-to-rent is a great way of doing that. For anyone who is not in the property world, it essentially means where you take a property, you pay a landlord a fee for say a five-bedroom house, and then you rent it out on an individual basis per room, as it were.

So that started to generate me cash and started to think, right, now I can do this and you get one and then you get another and then you get another. Now this podcast doesn't have enough time to really speak about this in depth. However, if you want to know the full story of the Rent-to-Rent journey for me, then go and check out Girls and Property. do a whole episode about the starting out of the Rent-to-Rent business and the journey that it took me on. So please go listen to that in depth conversation.

But then how Girls and Property came about was that I'd say a couple of months into my rent-rent journey and I was doing well. I was getting a couple of properties as it were and controlling the assets as opposed to owning the assets. So you can pick up ones quite quickly. What then happened was someone said to me, you should start networking. You should start going networking, meeting landlords, meeting investors and start building up your presence in this industry. So I said, okay, I'll do that. So I went to my first ever networking event.

which was Progressive Property Network in Bournemouth with Lee Ashby. And Lee knows this, I've spoken on this stage and I've told this story. And I remember I walked into this room. This was around September, October time, 2022. And I walked in and out of, there was a sea of men, literally. And out of 45 people in that room, only three were women, including me. So there were two other women.

I remember in that moment, I remember thinking to myself, I felt this urge to not go in. I felt this urge that said to me, this isn't the right room for me. I shouldn't be here. I don't feel good enough to be here. What I know to this day to be true in my heart is that I know so many girls that would have turned around and never walked into that room. It would have been so overwhelming for them that they'd have just left. But I said to myself, no, come on, you can do this. You can do this. But I immediately went up to this girl called Claire.

I immediately went up to her and I literally hung onto her like a koala. I was like, Claire, don't leave me. We're the only women here. There was another one, but she seemed quite confident. I remember Claire looking at me like I was crazy. She was like, who are you? Get off me. Go away type thing. I was like, right, okay. I tried to merge in with the guys and I tried to be like, right, let's have a conversation. Let's really try this. Again, this was 2022, so this isn't recent. was three years ago, but we were at the bar.

and I remember these guys just huddling around and they were all drinking and we were by the bar and the conversation just didn't quite work for me. There were some inappropriate jokes, there were some conversations about all the wives at home and it just didn't quite land with me as it were as a female. And I remember I came away from that networking event and I did not think to myself as I drove home, I did not think I need to take over the world, I need to start a female property network.

I need to change the way things are done. None of that happened. But I went and I drove home and all I said to myself was, that's a shame. That's a shame that that happened. And I sort of just held onto that. So then what happened was, was I went home and a couple of days later, I started to research female property networks, female property podcasts, anything female related. literally, actually, Chris, let me ask you this to bring you into the conversation. Like back in 2022,

Female Property Network, Female Property Podcast, all of that. How many do you think existed in 2022? I would have thought there would have been a few. mean, God, hard to put a number in terms of the UK. I mean, I'll say, I don't know, five. Right. So back in 2022, there was zero female property networks specifically for females in the industry. in people, why I'm not really clearing is that

Females could be welcomed, females were welcome to join, but I'm talking about just a female property network or a podcast dedicated to females as it were. And I say the only one I found, and if anyone disagrees, let me know, the only one I found when I looked at a company's house, when I looked at research was two girls that were called Girls That Invest and they're in New Zealand. I think they were two sisters or two friends and I listened to their podcast and I loved it.

They gave information about investing. They gave information about everything, but it was in New Zealand. was, they were Kiwi. And I was like, why doesn't that exist here? Why doesn't that exist in the UK? So I actually went to brunch with my friend in September. It was my birthday and my friend, Sophie said to me, she's like, why don't we start a podcast? So she said to me, why don't we start a podcast? And I remember I laughed at her so hard. said, don't be so ridiculous.

I said, no one is going to listen to it. No one's going to be interested. And she's like, yes, they will. She's like, we have stories to tell. Like we used to talk about our stories all the time about, I've got so many stories of my rent to rent journey of things that happened to me on viewings, things that happened to me with tenants, so many stories. And she's like, why don't we just tell our story? And so that's exactly what we did. We started a podcast. The first episode was aired on January 15th, 2023. And it was, it's called Girls and Property. And what happened from there was that

Loads of girls started coming out of the woodwork through Instagram. Instagram was our central point and girls were like, my God, I can't believe this exists. ⁓ my God, I've been craving for this. my God, where have you been? And these women just came out of nowhere that have been investing in property and doing property. And I was like, wow, this is incredible. So they said, can we do a big meetup for all of us women? And I thought, yes, why not? I love events. I've done events management as one of my degrees. Why don't we do this?

So we had no business, we put our hands in our own pockets, we made no money from the event, it actually cost us money, but me and Sophie put together this event for Girls and Property, it was the first year event we did, and we had 52 women show up for that event. And it was amazing, it was absolutely amazing. But then after that, what happened was, was my friend Sophie turned to me and she said, I can no longer do this.

doesn't generate money, it takes up too much time, we're podcasting every Monday, I've got two children, I want to go buy a scuba diving center. She's an amazing woman, but she's like, I've got to go. And so she's like, I think girls and property should die effectively. And I was like, no, I was like, there's something here. We need this. We need this. My heart's in this. This is what's necessary. Forget about the money. This is what's necessary. And so I decided to go on to

to incorporate Girls and Property on October, 2023. I incorporated it and I've made Girls and Property what it is today. So in a nutshell, Girls and Property today is number one, a podcast, which is every single Monday at 7 a.m. with different guests every single week. Sometimes I do solo episodes and I get both men and women on the podcast, but mainly it's for women to have a voice in the industry. I now make recurring revenue from that podcast because I have sponsors for the podcast. So I make money through that.

Then the other way that I have built this business is I have a community, an online community. And through that, it's a membership. So I have a membership that I run for girls on property. I bring guest expert speakers to come in and speak online. And we now have over 120 members inside that community. And then I put on events. So for the community, do a summer and a winter party. Party's actually coming up on Saturday.

the 15th of November in Birmingham. So if anyone wants to send me a message through Girls and Property, let me know. Saturday 15th, we've got a Girls and Property party, which is amazing. And then I do my big event. My big event is once a year over in Tring, usually in April, save the date for, I think it's Friday 24th of April, 2026. And I bring 80 women together from all across the UK. And it has sold out every single year from the day I started it, which would have been back in 2020. yeah, community, podcast.

events. That is Girls and Property and it's one of my absolute pride and joy that I've done in this world. it's great hearing that story. It reminds me actually so much of my own journey with Escape the Rat Race, which was a similar story. I think there's a really good lesson there of when you are searching for something and you just can't find what you're looking for out there. Like I was looking for groups of people into personal development and this was around about 2014 when I was leaving my job. Similar to you, you you're looking for the groups and not finding it.

start your own. And you never think it's going to lead to anything. And you had 52 at your first event, I had 40 come to my first meetup, and it just grows organically from there. So I think a strong lesson there, like the entrepreneurial spirit of, if you can't find what you're looking for, then start that yourself, solve a problem that exists. a lot of people, I guess, are fearful. And like you said, who's going to listen to me? Who's going to take notice of me? But any words of...

of advice for someone listening now who's kind of at that point of, shall I do it? Shall I not? Yeah, 100%. So the first thing I want to say, Chris, is I love the story of what you created as well. And it's wonderful when you meet people and you have synergy in that. Someone said something to me once and it really stuck with me. They said, when you can't find the right door to walk through for what it is you're looking for, go and bloody build your own door. And that's what they said. And that's what me and you did. We literally built the door. Now, it is not easy to do that.

Because the one thing that you're always going to have is you're always going to have imposter syndrome. Everybody suffers with imposter syndrome. Every single person on this planet thinks to themselves that they're not going to be enough. And also the reality is, you've got to think about what resources you have available. And I think the truth of it is, is where I see... I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs on a daily basis. And I think the number one thing that really keeps people going is you have to love it. And I mean like, love it.

You almost dare I say have to be slightly obsessed, slightly obsessed. Because if you're not and you don't love it, the days where the money doesn't come in and the days where you're like, everyone's telling me this is a bad idea. Everyone's telling me I'm not going to make any money from this. Everyone's telling me to go and get a job. You will end up listening to them because you will fall out of love with what you're doing. So for me, for example, for girls and property, let me give you good example of this.

the first year, at least a year, if not a year and a half, two years of Girls and Property podcast, it made me zero. Zero in income. No money. Nothing. No sponsors. No revenue. Nothing. But imagine, and you'll know this, Chris, right? Anyone who's ever done a podcast before, you all know the level of effort that has to go into a podcast to be aired every single Monday at 7 a.m. And I talk about this when people come to me saying they want to start a podcast. I'm like, you need to love it because

You've got to find guests, you've got to do the editing, you've got to do the recording, you've got to do everything. And when you're starting out in your business, you have to be everything. So for the beginning of my journey with my podcast, I was everything. I didn't have a team. I was a one-woman band that did it all and made no money from it. And so then you've got to think to yourself, well, okay, where am going to generate the rest of the money from? Where is it all going to come through? So to be honest with you, Chris, I never really had this vision of being this entrepreneur. I wasn't like, I'm going to become an entrepreneur.

This was almost like a passion project for me. I think I thought that property was going to become my main source of income and that property was going to become the thing that I became. But actually what ended up happening was, was you learn as you go through the journey and you develop as a person, you start to understand this notion about, hold on, property, I think now is more like wealth generation for me. Whereas girls and property is more cash revenue. And so you've got to understand this notion between cash fee, the wealth as it were.

quite frankly, the more and I was doing the rent to rent, and let's face it guys, let's just be really real. The more tenant issues that you find, the more times you go to a viewing in the rain where someone says to you that they'll be there in 10 minutes and then they don't turn up, the more times you have to talk to a landlord because they won't pay for the boiler and the tenants, and you're in the middle because you're managing the property and the tenants are having a go at you and you're getting calls at 11 o'clock at night because someone's locked themselves out. You start to question it and you start to go, is this what I want?

Or is it actually that I want something else? Is it that I just want to own property and I want to pivot again? So I'd say even in the short space of time of three to four years that I have been an entrepreneur, if that's the term you'd like to use, because I am an entrepreneur, I have pivoted so many times. And I think that it's great to say that. But the advice that I would give to people would be believe in yourself. If you have a dream and you want to go for it, go for it.

And you will have more regret in not knowing and not trying than trying and failing. Because then if you try and you fail, you'll learn something in the meantime. And one of my good friends once said to me, if you're not winning, you're learning. So I think that would be the advice that I would give. Just go for it. Just do it. Why not?

So had COVID have not come along, had you have not been furloughed, where do you think you'd be today? You know, I ask myself this question all the time. If I'm completely honest with you, I think I'd have ended up as director of the company that I was working for. That was the direction I was going. I was top senior consultant. I was going into management.

I became a sales coach. I was top of the dealer board. I held the record for the company to the fastest 500, half a million made for the company and I hold the records for the fastest million made for the company. And I think that all the conversations I always had with the CEOs and I got taken on all these trips, there was always like four or five of us taking on these like really lavish trips every year. I was always on those trips. And they always used to say to me, because there was no female director part of the company, there never had been a female director. And they would always say to me, Athena, you're going to become the first female director.

And I had that vision and that dream and I loved travel. So to answer your question, Chris, I would have stayed in the job. I'm pretty sure I would have stayed there and I probably would have become that. But you know what? Everything happens for a reason. COVID was meant to happen. And now the beauty of it is, the reason I love the job is I love to travel. But what I've now actually created for myself, which I know we're going to talk about, is I have travel still in my life. All I need to work is a laptop and a mobile phone.

I have traveled the world this year. I've been to so many countries this year because I can. The reason I loved my old job is still the reason I love this job, which is travel. That's my why. That's always been my why. The term financial freedom gets thrown around a lot online and we like to talk more about financial independence and recurring income. But financial freedom means more than just obviously the money that's coming in. For you, sounds like it means that freedom to travel and

What else does financial freedom kind of allow you to do in your life? Do you know, I think about this question often because I of course ask it to a lot of people as well. And for me, the number one thing that always comes to my mind is this notion of choice. I always think for me, money gives me choice. So if I needed to have an emergency and I had to go and do something, I have the choice to do that.

⁓ For example, great example is yesterday I had a situation where I couldn't work during the day. There was a personal issue that happened and I was able to take that time. I was able to delegate to my team. I was able to say, I need to go, I've got to come off the phone today and you need to take over. And so for me, gives me that choice. It gives me the choice to say, today I have to focus here. Today I have to focus here. Or if I'm stuck in a country, let's say, and I've got to get home and it's going to cost me 10 grand.

I've got 10 grand in my bank account that I can get home. So for me, it gives me choice. It gives me that buffer and it gives me that love for living life. When I talked to a lot of people who are still in their corporate jobs, a lot of them, it's like they work to live and I worked to live. I worked in retail and I gave up my weekends. I missed Christenings, I missed birthdays. So I was working to live. Whereas now I live

to work, if that makes sense. Is that the right way around? Yeah, no, I understand. So let's dive more into the property side of things. So we understand, you know, beyond the rent to rent, which you began with, and actually just wanted to ask you a question on that because a lot of people when they're starting out at the beginning, they perhaps haven't got enough funds to really start buying property. There's a choice of rent to rent and sometimes deal sourcing. You obviously choose rent to rent. Any words on that choice as, you know, why someone might do deal sourcing over rent to rent and the difference between them?

Yeah. So, gosh, Chris, I think it's actually deeper than that, if I'm honest with you, but I'm going to try and keep the succinct as best I can. I think that people think those are the only options. And what happened was when I first started, you have to think of it like when you're starting out in property, like a 70-20-10 split. That's what I was taught, 70-20-10. So 70 % cashflow, 20 % lump sums, 10 % longevity. And you've got to think, right, what do I need at this moment?

Now let's say that you need cash because you want to leave your full-time job and you're like, need to replace my income. We're to look at the cash for the moment. And people think that cash flowing strategies to get into property is deal sourcing, rent to rent and property management. Those are the main ones. And people get so tied into that and I got so tied into that. Now, to answer your question, the main difference between rent to rent and deal sourcing is rent to rent, you require actually a little bit more money to start.

because you have to actually invest in the property. Not a huge amount, but for example, usually what happens is, is that you take on tired properties. It's usually landlords that don't want the properties anymore. So you're to have to put a little bit of work into it in order to convince the landlord that this is why they should do a corporate let. So for example, on average, because I get the question all the time, on average on a five-bedroom to six-bedroom, I used to spend about 5,000 pounds setting it up. Furniture, carpets, walls, painting, whatever. Deposit, et cetera.

So you need a little bit of money to start. ⁓ But then what happens is that you actually have the control of the unit and you then effectively become a property manager. You get tenants in, you then manage the property. Deal sourcing is totally different. Deal sourcing is where you go and you analyze and you find a deal and then you sell it on. And once you sell it on, you sort of like wash your hands. You're sort of done. But what I would say is this, I always ask about people's personalities when they're thinking about deal sourcing be rent to rent. And my advice to you would be if you're listening to this,

Think of your personality. If you are very good at sales and you love sales, deal sourcing is fabulous for you because you need to be good at communication, you need to be good at talking to investors, you need to be good at selling yourself, selling the deal and why people should really come to you. With rent to rent, you have to kind of be the same, but you have to be a little bit more of a people person in terms of convincing like the landlord to take it on. And then you have to be very good at being very good at multitasking and managing multiple properties.

and also speaking to tenants as well and being a very good problem solver. So if someone was thinking about the two of those, I would sit and I'd say to myself, do I want to keep the properties and do I want to manage the properties or do I just want to sell the properties on instead? And that would be the way that I would do it. I'd start with personality. But if I can just caveat just for another thought, just on top of this, and I'll keep it brief, it's this. Those are not your only options is what I will say to you.

And I want everyone to think bigger in this moment. What if you actually got a job within the property space? What if you don't actually have to leave your job? What if you actually went and got a job within the property space, got educated, learn as you went, and then went on to do something else? It's not a case of I'm a travel consultant, I'm going to leave everything that I know and now I'm going to leave my job and I'm going to jump full time into a completely new industry, which is what I did, but I'm not saying you have to do that.

Or is it that you become an entrepreneur and that you become have a property business? So one of my mentees came in asking to do rent to rent and I very quickly that that is not what she wanted to do because I actually spoke to her and I understood what her ambitions were and she's ended up becoming an EPC regulator in her area. So she now has a property business that she makes money from, but she now does EPC regulations as a result of rent to rent. So I just want to say.

Think of all of your options. Don't just narrow yourself into a box. That's a really good point, actually. Something that I learned from Daniel Priestley as well, when he talks about people who just jump from the corporate world into the entrepreneurial world. And he says, join an entrepreneurial team first. Get on the inside, learn the ropes, learn what you like, what you dislike. And then that puts you in a much better position then to transition into the right thing.

Okay, so I know you often share six things that you wish you knew. This was your kind of learnings from your property journey. I think we've probably touched on a few already, right? Would you like to share some of those with our listeners? Because I think there's some real value in these six lessons. ⁓ gosh, right. Okay, so let me bring them up. So the first one by a country mile, the first one I always say to everyone whenever you're starting out, is what happens is, is I think that And I understand why it happens because I took the exact same path, guys. I was exactly the same. I'm no different to any of you. But we feel like, we need to now learn this new trade that we're going to be going into. Therefore, I want to get educated. But what ends up happening is sometimes I feel that people jump into courses too often and too frequently and too early than when they're actually ready for it. And you end up wasting your money. So in short, this is what I want to say. My first biggest lesson is don't rush to buy a course.

Whoever's selling it, don't rush to buy it. And I'll tell you why. If you're not in a place where you can implement the course from day one as soon as you walk out, don't do it. Don't spend the money. Don't waste your two and a half grand or whatever it costs. If you're in a position where you're like, Athena, I'm ready to implement, I'm ready to learn, and I'm ready to take the next step the following day, the day after, then do it. You're at the right time. Too many people waste their money going, a course is going to solve this for me. A course is going to make me feel like I'm moving myself 1 % forward.

But what ends up happening is you then put up, let's face it, we've all done it. We get our folders, our lovely folders, we write all our notes. We think, yeah, I've written my notes, aren't I amazing? You put it on a bookshelf, you never look at it again. And I so many listeners are laughing right now going, yeah, Athena, hands up, that's me. And do know what? Me too, 100%. So don't do that. Don't do that. Spend your money wisely, but go and implement what you're learning. So buy the course at the right time. Don't rush to buy it. And when you go to buy your courses,

Please make sure that you your due diligence on everyone. Maybe get some advice from people who have done that course. Maybe get some information about people who are on the course at the moment. Don't just believe the large marketing of some of these companies that can spend thousands on ads. Please just make sure that you talk to someone. And I always say to people, if you're unsure, you are more than welcome to DM me on Instagram. And if I can give any knowledge or anything or point you in the right direction, I'm always happy to do so. So, buy at the right time your course.

And that's a good one. I actually, I kind of jumped ahead a bit there because we started with where you began, right? And I know you did some education, you know, to help you with your rent to rent. yeah, step one, do the right education. Yeah. The importance of education, you know, we can't emphasize that enough, right? Because we see so many people who perhaps rush into something and education can come in different forms, can't it? It's lots of free education available now, podcasts, webinars, books, videos. And then some people choose to do paid education. And as you say,

There's a lot of choice out there and sometimes that leads to overwhelm. does. So really good point, Chris, there actually. So the first course I ever did, which I got through Facebook, doom scrolling, was for £99 for two days online. And actually I've skipped a chapter, which I've just realized I've skipped a quite important chapter of my life, which was actually the first thing I didn't do was rent to rent. The first thing I actually did was I used the savings from my commissions that I'd earned for my job. And I actually went and I bought a one-bedroom flat in Bournemouth.

That's actually what I did before Rent2Rent. And I did that. And I tell you why I did that actually. I did that because I listened to the course and I thought to myself, yep, I can do that. I don't know if anyone else has these moments as entrepreneurs, but sometimes you can sit quietly, you can say to yourself, I can do that. I know I can do that. But what I didn't do was I didn't rush into it. I first of all gained a lot of free education. So by the way, guys, there is so much free education out there. This podcast is free education.

YouTube clips, books, all of that amazing, amazing set of free education. Go and use it. And I reckon that I invested about four months into my education from a free perspective within this. And then from there, I then went and bought my flat and long, long story, but I effectively went and the idea was to turn it from a one bedroom to a three bedroom flat to do the biorefurbish rent refinance. But big lesson, I bought it for too much money. The numbers were wrong that I did.

And I was never ever going to make it work as a three bed. I gained the planning permission. I did everything in the right way. But the more information I received and the more help I received over time, the more people told me I had done the wrong thing. And so the first investment I actually ever did didn't work. It was the wrong decision because I jumped in too soon. But I still hold that flat to this day. It's my baby. It's the one I made all my mistakes on. I've got the most beautiful tenants in there and I love it. But what happened was, was I put all my money into that

property and then I ran out of money, hence how Rent to Rent then came about. I skipped that chapter, which was an important chapter to talk about. And again, I tell all the stories about that on my podcast. If you want to hear the horror stories of that flat, go and listen to the podcast on it. Well, let's weave in your property journey beyond Rent to Rent, along with some more of the lessons that you share. And I know one of the lessons is show everyone your journey from the start. So at what point did you actually begin to realize that was important?

When did I realize that that was important? It was not immediately. It was not immediately. was. Hmm. Do you know, it probably came about when I actually started to renovate the the flat because I started to take photos of the new carpets going in, the walls going up. say walls going up and painting and things like that. And

I think I started to document that and I think just almost on my socials, which wasn't like a professional property one, it was just a bit of fun. I started to show people what I was doing and people became interested. But I tell you what, the best advice I can give and the people that I watch today who do it in the most amazing, amazing way, they are incredible people, are these women who document their journey from the beginning. And I can give so many shout outs to these women who right now are...

beginning of their journey, they're showing everyone what they're doing and the highs and the lows because I'm telling you the reason why it's important to do that is when investors start to look at you, investors invest in people that they know, like and trust. And if you only show a shiny house that is finished and you don't show the journey of that, no one's going to know you. No one's going to know who you are. They're just going to be like, okay, they've now got this house. Everyone has a story to get to that shiny house, right?

Everyone has it where you pull the floorboards up and suddenly there's this ridiculous big 10,000 pound issue that comes up. Everybody has that. And if you talk about that more, then that is going to show the investors that they can trust you because you're showing the good and the bad as it were. And people often say to me, they're like, but Athena, I've got nothing to show. I've got nothing to say. What would I be showing up for? Tell people about if you're investing in certain area, why they should invest in that certain area.

tell people, if you're investing in leads, why should I invest my money in leads with you? Why should I be in leads? If you're doing a leaflet drop, okay, why that leaflet? Why that area? Why that gold mine area? If you're writing a letter, show that you're writing a letter, show that you're putting it through, because people are then beginning to learn who you are, and people start to see you and this. Do you know the amount of times now I get DMs from people who, by the way, have never spoken to me before, ever, that they're lurkers. This is what I always say, you get lurkers within the social space.

And I'll get people who reach out to me and they're either willing to invest with me or they're willing to sponsor girls and property or whatever it may be. And they always say, Athena, I've loved watching your journey from the start. They're like, I've loved watching you. I loved watching you grow and become who you are now and to become future. And I think that people really, this is such, I don't know you agree with this Chris, but I think the property space in particular is a people business. And I think people love watching people.

grow and they love honesty and they love the realness that comes through. So the perfect time to start guys is when you don't feel ready, that's the time to start. And I guess from rent to rent, at what point did you then decide you were going to move into a different strategy? Yeah. So also just to say on that rent to rent, by the way, do you know the amount of times that landlords came to me for rent to rent through social media because of what I was posting? ⁓

it's really important you should be showing up because then landlords are gonna see your work as well. What happened was when I pivoted was I actually went from rent-to-rent HMO into rent-to-rent service accommodation. So I went from having tenants to having guests. And I remember there were two occasions, two light bulb moments. So my two light bulb moments were number one, it was Sunday evening, it was about nine o'clock at night, I was just about to sit down to my dinner, literally just about to sit down to my dinner. I got a call from one of the guests, sorry, it was a guest.

And they said to me, Athena, we've just arrived. I can't close the window to, and it's on the street. I don't feel safe staying here. And I said, well, who's with you? Who can close this window? And she said, my husband's here, but he's broken his arm. I can't close this on my own. I need someone to come out. Sunday, 9 p.m., about to sit down to my dinner. 35 minutes away to get to this property. And I think, my God, for God's sakes. And I thought, right, I'll come in a bit. ⁓ I said to her, I'll come as soon as I can. And she said,

I'm feeling really cold. I'm feeling really scared. I don't like the fact the windows open. I want to stay somewhere else tonight." They were staying for a week. She goes, I want to stay somewhere else tonight. And basically kicking off saying that she wanted a full refund. And I said, right. So I couldn't eat my dinner through stress, quite frankly. It's just a really stressful situation. My phone was going off like crazy. So I left my dinner and I drove 35 minutes to help her to close this window, which was quite tough to be fair. So I closed it with her and then I left. And on the drive home, I remember I said to myself,

This is not my life. This is not my life. This is not the life that I choose to live anymore. I don't want this anymore. It's not worth it. It's not worth it for me. Like who am I right now? And I remember I drove home, put my dinner in the microwave and I said, I don't want this anymore. And I carried on. I carried on doing what I always do. And then my friend said to me, Sophie, who I started the podcast with, who knows me very well, she looked at me one day and she said to me, you don't want to do this anymore.

She's like, can see it in your eyes. She's like, the love has gone, the love for property and this element of property has gone. And I said, yeah, I don't, I don't want to do it anymore. And she says, then stop. She says, stop. And the reason that I then went back to her and I remember I said to her, I can't stop. And she said, why? And I said, because now people are looking to me for mentoring in this particular field. And if I don't do it, I can't teach it. And she said to me, that's a load of rubbish.

She says, that's a little rubbish. She says, you can teach them. You know exactly how to teach them. You're now moving on to bigger and better things. She's like, you've got investors in your pipeline because of what you've done. You can now go buy property. She's like, it's time to move on. So my friend helped me to realize that I was ready to move on. And as a result, that's exactly what happened. And I always say to people, the short version of this is, the day I handed back the keys to my rent to rent, all of my rent to rent properties, HMO, service accommodations, the lot.

I was as happy the day I gave them back as the day I picked them up. I was free, literally free. And so from there, I basically now work with investors. And my biggest thing by country mile is this notion about keep it simple. It doesn't have to be crazy. doesn't have to be, for me, I don't need to do commercial conversions and convert churches and all of this. That's not where my love is. I love buy-to-lets. I love creating good homes for people to live in that are simple, effective, and I'm in the South. So, cats appreciation on them.

and just the long-term gain. Now, within that long-term gain, I haven't done this yet, but I would love to do some flips as well. I'm very interested in doing some flips. But for me, biorefurbished rent refinance and buy-to-let's is essentially my main gain. However, never say never, someone has said to me, I've been having conversations lately with someone and this notion about land development is now starting to come into my fold and title splitting and all of that. But buy-to-let's is predominantly my

property portfolio now, as it were. Nice and clean and simple. And I can watch and eat my dinner at nine o'clock at night on a Sunday in peace. And I love it. Couple of interesting things that came out of that. You just kind of threw a few different strategies out there and this shine, well, no, but.

The shiny penny syndrome that catches a lot of people outright because there's many different strategies within property that people get excited and they jump on a webinar or they attend an event and they hear someone speak about how fantastic this is and they go off down that path and often it's not the right path for them. Comes back to your point about knowing yourself right at the beginning, but also that simplification where at the beginning you get excited, you just want to do loads and you want to create loads and actually it gets to a point where then you start to just

reduce, reduce and simplify down to the core things. And you work with a lot of women, I'm sure, who are in that mode of getting excited and wanting to do lots of things. And how do you help them to just kind of, I guess, decide on the right things and not be distracted by everything that's out there? Yeah, great question. I have this all the time. I have this on a daily basis. So this is what I say to all of them. What resources do you currently have available? That's my first question. What resources do you have?

And when I talk about resources, I'm talking about not just money, I'm talking about time and energy as well. So actually four resources, knowledge, money, time, energy. And therefore you've got to think to yourself, right, at this moment in time, what do I have? And I give a great example of this because I always think examples really help. So I remember there was this woman that came to me for mentoring, lovely, lovely girl. And she came to me asking because she wanted to do rent to rent in her area. And I said to her, okay, I'll help you with that.

And I started to learn more about her even within our first to second session. I knew that we weren't going to end up doing rent to rent because the types of questions that you then ask yourself is kind of like, how much time have you got? I've got a full-time job. I'm like, okay, that's interesting. I've got two kids. Okay, that's interesting. Market research. there actually not that many HMOs in the area. Okay, interesting. And so you start to look at the resources that are available to you. And then I say to her, talk to me about your resources. I gave her tasks to do. I was like, talk to me about people in your life who might have

some money or like your black book of contacts or something. Turned out she then told me after a couple of weeks that she actually had someone that she'd been speaking to for some time that she didn't realize at the time had money to invest. And this person had no knowledge in property, was a banker, just wanted to put his money somewhere, wasn't working in there. And she and him, and I helped her to do this, she and him ended up coming together and basically he became the investor.

and they went on to then do a flip together. And they successfully did the flip together and made a nice amount of money from it. And so she came to me asking about rent to rent. But once I actually said to her, well, what resources have you got? How much time, energy, money and knowledge have you got? And she's like, well, I've actually got no time. I've actually got two kids. And I don't actually think that my personality suits rent to rent because I'm not very confident and I'm not very good at speaking to landlords and trying to convince them why I should take on this property.

Believe me, there's a lot of rejection in rent-to-rent, a lot of rejection. You need to have a ⁓ hard shield to yourself. And I said, you know, I don't think this is for you. I think we're going to need to find an investor. We're going to need to flip this on its head. So resources is what I would say. What resources do you have? What's your personality? What is your why and what is your end goal? Some people, for example, don't want to leave their full-time jobs. They love their job. And I'm like, great, you don't need to leave your job.

What's your property strategy that you're going to do then? I want longevity. Okay, are we thinking buy-to-let? They say to me, yeah, I want to do a buy-to-let, but I need to pull my monies out. I go, okay, so we need to look at a property that you get blow market value. You make the money when you buy. I've always said this, you don't make the money on the sale, you make it when you buy it. So you need to get the right price, you need to get the right team in, and then you need to basically refinance it and pull some monies out. And for me at the moment with the way that the market's going, anyone who tells you,

there are these unicorn deals and you can pull all of your money out and it's as easy as that. I'm telling you now it's not. The market is very interesting at the moment, but at the same time there are some real motivated sellers. You just need to understand how you can add value in the best way to the property. So resources is what I'd say is the answer. And you've touched on the market conditions at the moment.

Lots of people with lots of different opinions. We've got the budget looming as well. You've said earlier, buy-to-let is your kind of sweet spot, but many will say buy-to-let is dead. how do see the market panning out over the next sort of 12, 24 months? So I'll tell you the conversations that I'm having with a lot of people at the moment who own property. So I'm finding that a very, very certain demographic of person. And I'd say this demographic of person has usually been in the industry for about 30 years. About 30 years, they're in there.

60s, usually male, and they say, I'm getting out, I'm getting out, I'm selling my portfolio. They've usually got a portfolio that they want to sell on. And I say, why are you getting out? And they said, I've got this legislation coming up and the mortgage rates and everything's changing. And I try and explain to them about the legislations. I'm like, do you even know what's going on with the renter's rights bill and all of that? Do you even know what's happening? And they usually say to me, no, and I don't really want to know. I don't really care.

I bought into this 30 years ago. I've got loads of money in this house now. I bought it for like 40 grand. It's now worth like whatever. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous what some of them have actually managed to appreciate in the time that they've had it. And so I feel like the, not the young bloods, I don't want to be ageist in this, but there are people who are now coming into this industry who are fresh to it and want to take it on. And with that, I think there's so much opportunity to almost take it from the baby boomers.

who want to get out and want to maybe put their money in stocks and shares, for example, but not in property anymore. So I think that there is opportunity actually at this moment to gain if you can find the right motivated seller. And the only way you're going to find these, the only way you're going to find these is in conversations with people. You're not necessarily just going to find them on Rightmove and Zoopla and all of that because they're already going to be scooped up by somebody else. But I reckon that

They're usually going to be quite tired, dated. Some of them HMOs, some of them buy-to-lets. And if you can get it at the right price and create a deal with these people who just want the cash, it could actually be a really, really interesting market at the moment. And for corporate lets as well, because a lot of them with the renters' rights board, for example, don't want to be dealing with all these tenants that could just leave at any moment. They want a solid corporate let that's going to be in there for say three to five years and create a contract with them about that.

So I actually think there's a lot of opportunity at the moment. That's my angle on it. Yeah. No, that's good to hear. Positive spin because there's a lot of fear out there at the moment. Kevin and I did an episode recently and yes, people are worried and people are waiting to see what's going to happen. But yeah, there's always opportunities that always have been and they will continue to be so. Don't you feel just with the housing market, sorry Chris, but don't you feel the housing market like it's always this way? It goes up, then it goes down, then it goes up, then it goes down.

houses are like stocks, like compounding, you just have to hold and you just have to wait almost and allow for that to happen. But it comes to the individual person, it comes down to what their risk appetite is and what it is and how quickly actually they need to see their returns on their investments as well. always find. you mentioned the power of sort of, you know, speaking to people other than going out to perhaps property networking meetings. there any other strategies that you might share that you're finding useful at the moment?

For me, how I've found majority of my deals has actually been through speaking to people. And by the way, I'm not talking about networking and I'm not talking about, I now have to go to this networking event because this landlord is going to be at this networking event. I mean, talking to friends and family, like the amount of friends that have said to me, Athena, like, I need your help. I'm selling my two bedroom flat in Wallich or wherever they're selling it. Like, can you help me? It's as soon as you start talking about what you're doing within the property space,

People then start to see you as a person they could come to for that expertise or that advice. Because I tell you the biggest mistake that people make, people think that they don't know anything, right? Because they exist in this space where they go, I'm not as intelligent as Chris, I'm not as intelligent as Athena, I'm not intelligent as X person because I don't know as much as them. Yeah, but you know more than the person who's coming to you for advice. You know more than Sarah down the road, the neighbor.

who knows nothing and is coming to you for that. So if you just start talking about what you're doing, people will naturally be drawn to you. So for me, if I'm honest with you, the actual honest answer is that the deals kind of find me a little bit. But at the same time, it's very much this notion of, well, where you can find them is everywhere. They're essentially everywhere online. People fit agents. I love agents personally. I think if you can get a really good relationship with an agent.

then they're brilliant to talk to. They really can be your best friend if you just get on the right side of them and they'll then come to you before it even hits right move. So I'd say tell people what you do, agents are your best friend and just talk to everyone would probably be the way that I work things myself. So we've talked about diversified income streams, we've talked about your property income streams, creating a business now.

building IP, membership income as well. Tell us a bit more about Girls in Property membership. How does that work? How can people get involved and what do you provide for that? Yeah, definitely. So Girls in Property is, we're talking about this as a wealth builders podcast. So Girls in Property is the revenue stream that basically has brought in the majority of my recurring revenue, let's say. So the recurring revenue that I get from Girls in Property has literally replaced

my old salary. So I'm now earning more just through the Girls and Property membership, more than what I used to earn in my current position of my job. But how people can get involved in that in the most beautiful way is effectively, it's an online community, it's £30 a month. So literally just don't have one takeaway a month and it covers your membership or don't have a couple of coffees. And what's beautiful about it is that we do two calls a month. So the first Tuesday and the last and the third Tuesday of the month. So that's first Tuesday, third Tuesday. Now for me, what's so important for Girls and Property, and I've said this

throughout my entire chapters of everything is you have to mix property with something called prosperity. So you have to think about, right, the first session of the month is going to be all about girls and prosperity. So who are you as a business owner? Because not enough people talk about property as a business, right? So for me, I get people on to talk about systems. I get people to talk about team members, personal branding, sleep coaches. I get people to talk about prosperity. Like who are you as

Person, know mindset for example, and then the third Tuesday of the month is dedicated to property investing So for example title splitting HMOs rent to rent service accommodation So therefore if you needed to learn anything those are the sessions that you do and then I've built it on this platform called Circle because I don't know about you Chris But I hate I hate with a passion at whatsapp groups can't stand them. I hate whatsapp groups. I hate Facebook groups I'm like, let's build a professional platform that everyone can come and communicate and talk with each other

Because for me WhatsApp's ridiculous. You lose conversation, you lose messages all the time. The Circle platform is nice and professional. So it all exists on there. And my favorite section of it is that we've got a whole section called Ask the Community a Question. So we've got people putting in deals, we've got people putting in floor plans, we've got people asking for recommendations of brokers, solicitors, whatever it may be. And ⁓ with 127 of us now across the UK, it's incredible because everybody contributes, everybody can do that. And almost what I wanted for this was that

I didn't have to be the person that always responded with the answer. Now there's already about 20 comments before I've even got to the question. So I'm like, if I think I can add anything to the conversation, of course do it. But at the same time, they're all learning from each other and the platform gives them that place to do it. And even though online is amazing and online is great because everyone's around the UK and literally I have somebody in a different place around the UK all over. I've even got Jersey now, I've got Scotland, I've got...

got all on all. We also do in-person meetups. So throughout the year, as part of the community membership for £30, I do a summer party, obviously in the summer, and then I've got my winter party, which I mentioned at the beginning. And that's included as part of the £30 a month. So yeah, I think it's tremendous value for money. I love it. And it's what I wish I had. I wish I had when I first started, because I would have joined in a heartbeat. And where can someone head to if they're listening now and would like to find out more information about that?

Okay, let's do a plug, shall we? Great. So go to the website. Now the website is being updated guys. So probably around about the 1st of November, you'll see a brand new website. Be kind to it. I started this website when it was just me on my own, so be kind. But if you go to www.girlsinproperty.co.uk, click on the tab that says community and you can see it all in there and a bit of information as it were. But as I said, 30 pounds a month, just don't have a takeaway, don't have a couple of coffees and it will be the best investment you ever did.

because you were going to meet other women and you can share stories, you can share knowledge and you can share ideas together. So it is one of the best investments you can make, I believe. Amazing. And what does the future look like for you, Athena? What goals are you now setting your sights on? Do you know, I sat down with a financial advisor recently and I got to talk about my goals, as it were. So for me, I of course want to grow Girls and Property. I want to expand it. I want to get Girls and Property into its own studio and I'd love to get Girls and Property actually on tour.

I love doing events, love doing podcasts live. So that's one of the dreams that I've got. Property wise, I actually want to start now looking to actually potentially buy myself my first property abroad. I love traveling. So if I could buy a property in Greece or Spain or somewhere hot, I'm addicted to the heat. So somewhere hot that I can go to, make some money out of it through renting it out so it pays for itself would be amazing. And as I said, maybe a bit of land development, title splitting.

But I think for me, what I'm now looking for is simplifying my businesses. We spoke at the beginning about when I first started, I had about five companies that were set up. Totally the wrong thing to do. It's just the most ridiculous idea. Don't do it. With my financial advisor and my accountant now, at the stage of this, I'm now like, right, let's simplify. So what's going to happen to me going forward is simplifying the businesses, getting it into cash flow, the wealth generation.

at 34 years old, where am I at? Where do I want to be at 40? Where do I want to be at 50? I want to be retired by 50. That's my goal. 50 is my cutoff. And really thinking about this notion of how can I now make money without me being in the business? Because I think that the biggest lesson I take away from every entrepreneur I speak to is you have a business, but do you just have a glorified job within that business or do you have a business that exists if you're not in it?

And for me, what I'm now building for me going forward is a business that doesn't need me to run it. I'm the face of girls and property, but what is the team that can build it? Otherwise you just have a job for the rest of your life and I certainly don't want that. I'm going to throw a final question at you. If you had to sum up your philosophy of wealth and freedom in one sentence, what would that be? I would ask a question and my question would be in the sentence, what does your version of success look like?

would almost be my philosophy. What would your version of success look like? I used to believe that what success looked like was having a six-figure salary, seven-figure salary, million pound in my bank account, all of that. That doesn't necessarily bring happiness to me or to other people. What is your version of success? For me, wealth is bigger than just what's in your bank account. Wealth is about who you've got around you, who's standing there at the end with you.

Like when you're standing on that hill of all of your money and everything that you've made, who's standing by your side? And also the other thing I'd say is we talk about this notion of wealth and do know what really came to the forefront when I saw this question that you asked Chris was this notion of health is wealth as well. Because I'm sure that you get a lot of people on this podcast who talk about wealth means this to me and stuction shares and all of this. But you know, when I started my business, but nobody ever talks about is, no one ever talks about it. Is I burnt out twice.

doing this business, right? I lost myself within this business. So you've got to think to yourself, like, your health is your wealth. And if you cannot be the best version of yourself for the business, there's no point doing it because you will fail in it because you need to be your best version for it. And the conversations I have most frequently at the moment are these people that start these businesses and they burn out. And I'm like, it's because you went too quickly. Like, slow and steady wins the race. And wealth is all about long-term wealth.

Otherwise you're just going to burn out. And yeah, you might get a quick hit of your six figures, your seven figures. Congratulations. You're dead in two years. Like, what was it for? So it wasn't a sentence. I'm so sorry. But what does your version of success look like? Wise words and appreciate your very honest guidance and feedback today. So thank you, Athena. It's been really great speaking with you and look forward to catching up again soon. Thank you, Chris. And if anybody wants to get in contact on Instagram, that's where I hang out.

I'm girls in Property Pod on Instagram and Athena Dobson on SquatOfficial. My DMs are always open. Just come and have a conversation with me and listen to the podcast if you want to know any more horror stories, they're all on there. Yeah, I'll check all of those links in today's show notes for you. Thank you, Chris. Thank you for the invite.

Okay, wow. There's a lot to unpack there and thanks Athena for sharing all of that. Yeah, we talk about energy, Kevin, and Athena talked about assessing the resources of her members in particular, but we see this a lot as well, don't we? When we sit down with people and start to look at the plan, you have to take stock of what you've already got. And for Athena, she mentioned four resources in particular, which were knowledge, money, time and energy. Yeah, I mean, they're very close parallel.

to our own process with the five forms of leverage. We call it FIRST, F-I-R-S-T, finance, interest, which you could say is intellect as well, so knowledge, relationship, software or systems and time. So there's a very close similarity and I think she's observed with some of the stories that she was talking one case in particular that sometimes the very start of what somebody thinks they want to do in the end with good guidance and

With some introspection of their own personality, we use wealth dynamics as a tool to help do that. And two people readily come to mind who completely changed their mind of what they would do to build wealth. One was you, because you started off thinking about property as the primary asset. And the other one is Richiko, who talked initially about building kind of a business, didn't she? know, sort of retail type business.

So this ability to pivot, but keep in mind always the value that you bring. think you mentioned Daniel previously in the interview and a very smart man he is indeed. And he says, everybody's standing on a mountain of value, but they don't see it. That's because it's right below your feet. So sometimes it takes someone else to take a look at you and try and help you think about the best way for you to bring all of the

intellectual property that you've already got and not start life in whatever asset you want to build as a newbie, but as somebody who's bringing all that value and bringing it to give you an impetus from day one. think there's another lesson that Athena shared that sort of stems from that, which is people often at the beginning, because they're so excited, they rush into things. And well, I know I've done this myself in the past, you know, in the early days.

getting excited, you know, spending money on courses and perhaps, you know, rushed into them. They didn't give me the result that I was hoping. Unfortunately, this does happen, right? And why it's important to really get to know yourself first, take stock, understand what education you do need. So, Athena touched on that about doing your due diligence and ⁓ speaking to others, making sure that when you're going to invest time and energy, that you're investing it with the right people. It's a difficult one, that one, because you're getting into a relationship that you think you want because you feel.

Like if you come from the place where you believe you're new, you don't believe you're bringing an awful lot to the table. You're almost using an educator a bit like a crutch. And because you feel weak in that regard, you want to immerse yourself in it, even if it is a bit too early. It's difficult one. And sometimes you just got to move forward, make the educational decision. But I would say if you can...

Find somebody you resonate with, whether it's the wealth builder community or another community, maybe even the Athena's community, and talk and slow things down. And think about education, yes, as a precursor to wealth building, it's absolutely essential, but you don't have to get it by paying for a course. Sometimes a course is perfect, and we know lots of course sellers that we resonate with and we respect, but sometimes you don't need it, and you can sometimes learn things, as you said, Chris, through

online resources, sometimes free or very low cost like books. through, there are many core sellers, for example, who will do two for one or some kind of offer so that you could find somebody else, be part of a community, then connect with them. Or you can watch somebody else if they're open-minded. And I think what we definitely find with people like Athena and many others, they've got this complete passion about helping and you feel it radiates from their voice, doesn't it?

She wants to help. And I think that's true of our own DNA as well, our determination. We obsess about helping people to get a better outcome. And if you can find people like that, you can sometimes get them to point you in a direction to help you get the knowledge you need that equips you to get started. So there's many ways to be able to make that start, but it doesn't always have to start with a course. So. talked about two for one there. We offer that as well.

to our Academy members, don't we? Partners can join for free. And that leads me nicely onto one of our latest reviews, which we've received on Trustpilot from Bina. And Bina says, are so grateful to Christian, Kevin and the team. We've recently joined Wealthbuilders and the experience has been wonderful. We now have clarity on what we need to do and the clear plan. And the coaching calls also provide a great framework of keeping us on track. Thank you Wealthbuilders team.

That's been at Ampritesh and I get a message from Pritesh very often saying how much he enjoys listening to the podcast. I'm sure he'd appreciate the shout out. I was talking to them recently actually about one of the things that Pritesh wants to do, which is looking more towards a business. I expressed some things about doing due diligence and it's really important. So picking up on Athena's point, due diligence sounds like a

sounds like a hard word to do, if you can get a checklist on what to do, what does due diligence mean? And it means different things depending on what's the decision you're trying to make. If it's a course, will be different due diligence. it's an investor, we heard Athena talk about investors. There's a different due diligence process altogether. So due diligence means different things depending on what the pillar you're looking at. we're more than happy to.

show people how to do really great due diligence. Not that it's foolproof, nothing is foolproof. There's no risk-free investment in anything, but certainly when it comes to educators, certainly when it comes to investors, we know how to help people become at least as safe as they can be. But on that subject, by the way, she did mention investors, didn't she? And she talked about telling everybody what you do and how you do it and get a social media presence. And also to share and show people what you're doing.

But not just tell them, you know, because we know if you just tell people they can rapidly become bored or you can't really share that with another party. If you imagine we were in a meeting and we were talking to Bina and then she had to translate that to Putesh, you know, not going to get the same translation. So the sooner you can start taking photographs, the sooner you can start getting some lessons on how to just tell the story.

of what your business is, who you are, why you're in doing this, what problems you're trying to solve, how you do it ethically and how you do that to minimize the risk for somebody else. And I think the podcast we did on that one, Chris, goes back as far as 74, which we've showcased a few times, haven't we? So anybody who's in property who wants to become attractive to private investors, have a listen to podcast 74.

And maybe you could put a link in the show notes to that Chris. I sure will do. Yeah. And that's probably time for us to wrap things up today. So, um, whether you're a girl, whether you're a girl or a boy, man or woman, hope you enjoyed today's episode and took some useful nuggets away from that. And Kevin, you and I will be back same time, same place next week. Well, as long as you're alive, Chris, you sound a bit dodgy to me. Anyway, see you later. Bye.

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