Kindness and Purpose in Building Wealth: Why Is It Important?

Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00.014)
It was a catalyst, which is the death of my father. So I resolved to be financially independent by the age of 45. So I had to set up a plan and I didn't write the plan. I just thought, well, if I get that from the mortgage broker side, I get that from the IFA. If I get that from property, because you can see where you could earn money from property is a recurring income stream. And really that's what I did and became independent at 45 and then decided, well, if I can do it, I can teach other people how to do the same.

Hello, hello and welcome to episode 321 of the Welcome to Podcast, the podcast designed to help you build, protect and transfer your wealth. And unusually, I think our audience will be getting to know that it's me doing the intro. But today I've got a wonderful guest host, which is Bimby Fernando. And some of you might have heard

Bimby being interviewed by Chris a while ago. I've got a question for you, Bimby. I know you're going to question me. on episode three, two, one, I guess, you know, the, you know, we've been long established now within wealth talk. So finding new and interesting themes would, would be a good thing. And, and here's the thing we're going to test to see whether the theme works on me. You've had an idea and we want to test whether the audience resonate with ID.

the idea and whether then we would have you back. know, unusually for a doctor, you know, you don't have to go through an interview process, but I suppose we could argue this is. So say hi.

speaker-1 (01:41.24)
So fantastic. Thank you, Kevin. Yes. So episode 321, images of Dusty Bin seem to come to mind, first of all. So I might view you as Mr. Rogers during this particular interview, but I really want to pitch an idea to you and just see whether it resonates with our listeners. What I'm really interested in is to try and bring kindness and purpose to wealth building as a process. And

If it's all right with you, Kevin, I'd like to use you as a test case for this interview to see whether you're up for that. And I know that not only will you allow me to interview you, that's what I'm asking, but I expect you'll probably be the judge and jury to see if this will benefit the people we're serving at home listening to this particular podcast.

speaker-0 (02:30.102)
Do I get to wear a wig?

speaker-1 (02:31.896)
Well, I can't remember if he was, he did have some hair, didn't he?

speaker-0 (02:37.39)
For the younger people, they don't know what 321 is. TV program in the 80s probably or maybe early 90s, Ted Rogers and Dusty Bynne, it was an awful, awful, awful quiz program. Even worse than, let's talk about it boy. What was that one called again?

speaker-1 (02:58.638)
Is that what bulls are you talking about?

speaker-0 (03:00.352)
All side, that's it. You don't get anything in this for a three in a bed. That's terrible, terrible shows. Mind you, I'm not a big fan of reality TV and there are so many of those shows now anyway, but look, I'm digressing for the sake of fun because we want to enjoy this and see if people... This is a serious message, always underpinning Wealth Talk. And I'd be delighted to be interviewed with the kind of thematic

issues of both kindness and purpose. But before we go there, I've got a question that's perplexed me about doctors for years. And I wonder if you might help me understand that. Because you're a very well established doctor and a renal surgeon. And I'm puzzled by why doctors work so hard to get the title doctor.

And then all of a sudden when they get to a consultant level or whatever level it is, they drop it to a mister. And it feels odd because you wouldn't get a judge saying, no, no, no, no, just call me mister. They want to keep their your honor title. So help me understand why it is that doctors who at the top of their profession, like your good self, sir, lose their doctor's status, at least in terms of how they get the dress.

speaker-1 (04:27.406)
So I'd say that's partially true. So it's true for surgeons that surgeons, when they join the Royal College of Surgeons as four different colleges in the UK, when they achieve that award, they have the ability to drop the doctor to become a mister and that's to allow them to distinguish themselves from the other doctors within the medical profession. think historically,

Rumor has it that it came from the fact that the original surgeons were barbers. you know, those little... No, that's... I won't make any comments on that. remember you're the judge in this interview and I've also got the theme of kindness going on here in the background. I'm not going to cast any aspersions there, Kevin. But you may recall also the white and red that goes whirling around outside barbers.

speaker-0 (05:02.126)
can help you with one of them.

speaker-0 (05:08.814)
You'll be binned!

speaker-1 (05:24.088)
That's supposed to be a sign of blood as well because surgeons or barbers in those days used to have the cut throat razors and that apparently led to that. Now, that may be true or it may be completely made up, but I like the story and I'm not going to let truth get in the way of a good story if that is the case.

speaker-0 (05:44.502)
Well, listen, you've been a trusted member of Wealth Builders for a long time, and I'm delighted to say that you've moved through the program and got to a level of success for yourself. And I suppose a little bit like Tracy, Tracy Hilliard, who was a guest host recently, who's gone through the program herself and wants to give back. And that might be talked about as a little bit of kindness. You you want to

allow other people to get some, I suppose, personal exposure to the experiences that you've had that have served you in building your wealth. And you would expect with a high level of recognition that surgeons would get that, you know, this should be easy for any doctor to be wealthy, but there's still a process that people have to follow, isn't there?

speaker-1 (06:38.094)
No, absolutely. thank you for your kind words as well, Kevin. So I'm aware that I joined Wealth Builders latter part of 2021 in that climate. I know it was founded in 2019. And I was basically living and breathing the different Wealth Talk episodes that you and Christian have brilliantly hosted. I sort of completely indulged myself in that.

So it's a bit weird me being in this position. But I'm aware that doctors such as myself and all these other people in the hospital, my colleagues and nurses and allied healthcare professionals, absolutely brilliant people, wonderful people who make a good salary and may make a good income. But actually, when it comes to financial planning,

And when it comes to actually thinking about what they're going to do with that are in many situations hopeless and helpless. And in many ways, you know, if I just share the story, that is a running joke between many of us doctors that when we have our pay slip and it used to be given in a little envelope, we'd open a little corner of that and just peek at the bottom right-hand corner, which was the amount that would land in our bank account and quickly close it, not looking at the rest of it.

and thinking that we don't really want to know that, we don't quite understand that.

speaker-0 (08:06.69)
We don't do money as doctors,

speaker-1 (08:09.154)
That's exactly it. so, you know, that's perhaps leads me to the first question. You know, so I'm interested in your motivation, Kevin, because I see that, you know, with myself, I had a personal moment of impact during the COVID pandemic where I thought I need to take control of my finances, amongst other things.

But if I could ask you that question, was there a moment in your life when you realised that perhaps you needed to do something different? And how did that lead eventually to the seed of the wealth builder plant being sown?

speaker-0 (08:47.628)
Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. And it's question that's been well documented, I think. And if someone like you, a keen student of WellTalk, have gone back as far as episode one, they would have heard it. So rather than just simply repeat the story, I'll try and embed a lesson in the story. I think everybody who subsequently changes from being successful at earning to being successful at building wealth.

and then successful at protecting that wealth, and then further successful at transferring that wealth in an intergenerational way, which is big focus for wealth builders right now, not least because of changes happening around us. Each one of them demands a different skill set, and each one of them demands a catalyst. So even, I suppose, really one of the famous scientists of our time,

said an object at rest stays at rest, even if the rest is just to open the payslip. And what I found to be true for me is I probably would have gone down that path. Because as an economics graduate, I always felt my path was destined, at least originally, in banking. Because I did a sandwich course at Leeds University, and that involved me working.

in different periods of that course for a bank. What I discovered about myself was two things. One, I hated banking. I just didn't like it, which is great because the sandwich course taught me that rather than apply for banking jobs. And secondly, I wasn't really a very good employee. I wasn't good at being told what to do. I'm a big challenger of things, both intellectually and I suppose just generally. If I see something that doesn't look right, I just challenge it. I don't stop myself.

from much to the chagrin of my wife who says, don't say anything, will you? And I said, well, I have to because I've seen it. Anyway, did some of that on my recent holiday, which is not what she wants to hear, but there you go. And the point is there was that. And if you mix that with the challenge of my reaction to the early death of my father, who was a business owner, but unfortunately when he died at age 46, he didn't really

speaker-0 (11:13.582)
expect it and wasn't really saved because he died and collapsed on a North Sea oil rig. It was a heart attack, just suddenly collapsed and died. Given that we were genetic peas in the pod as far as everybody would comment, you look the same, you walk the same, you talk the same, all of those things for me and my dad were the same. When I finally woke up and grown up a little and decided I needed a career.

I kind of made a decision that the career that I should have would involve my economics, but it wouldn't really be as an employee. And so at the beginning, I just wanted to find something that I thought I would enjoy. And at the very beginning, there was mortgage broken. There was a buy, what was it called, right to buy. There was this big baggy Thatcher.

promotion of council house tenants buying their properties. And this is way back, this is probably 89 now. And when that came up, there was an opportunity for a young, enthusiastic, full-headed young man to be able to make a living. And I remember if I were to peek at my first year's paycheck in the end of 1989, it 67,100 pounds.

speaker-1 (12:40.93)
Was that the bottom right hand corner or did you look at the whole?

speaker-0 (12:43.31)
That was the gross because you know that was important because I was self-employed so the gross was largely what you had because you could offset so many things as a self-employed broker but you know I thought I can do this you know I can make a success out of this and just gradually I suppose within a year I thought you know there's a way to build this as a business so instead of having to sell the mortgages and arrange insurance and so on

that I could get other people to work. And I found others who were self-employed quite lazy. They do the work, but they would never invest in themselves. So, you know, I hired a PA and then hired multiple PAs to support others, and then I got an office and then allowed people to work from my office. So I invested before and realized that investing is the pathway to create a recurring income. I didn't call it that then.

It was just a profit. But over the years, I've managed to make enough distinctions to say that the best way to become free of the need to look at a payslip and free of the concern of your health in terms of financial consequences is to build recurring income. And I started to think about that more deeply.

And with that challenging mindset, just gradually started to think maybe I could do something more then maybe I could do something more. And there were no books, there was no internet. I know you said when we were chatting a little while ago, just as we joined, you went on your holiday or just after you dropped your computer and realized how dependent you were on it, right? And, you know, I was entirely dependent on myself. There was no...

There's no internet, no books on the subject. So it was kind of trial and error. And then as I started to write more, became confident about writing, I could see that my ideas would resonate with others. And I wrote my first book in 2004, Save a Fortune, How to Completely Eliminate Your Mortgage Loans and Credit Cards Fast. And the whole idea behind that was to teach people that being in debt forever was probably not a good thing.

speaker-0 (15:07.47)
and that most people, bit like the payslip, never looked at the true cost of buying a home. If they did and they went to the last page of the mortgage offer, which said, you pay for this property for 25 years and you pay 200,000 for it, you're to pay 600 grand back. And I thought, this doesn't make any sense to me. Why not pay it sooner? So I did. So I kind of created a concept called...

your debt-free day, the day you own everything and own nothing. And that was partly in the book. And I got Standard Life to pay me 10 grand to do it because we were promoting mortgages, know, the offset mortgages. I've always managed to find just creative ways to do something. And then, then I became an IFA and built a recurring income from being an IFA, but then got frustrated with IFA's because

It seemed to me there was too much about the product and not enough about the result. So I realized I want results for people. I don't just want a result for myself. And so left the profession still with the qualification. I've still keep my license up to date, but really I've been using the debt-free day, not the debt-free day, the wealth building principles for many more years than 2019 when I

kind of coined the term wealth builders. And because the book of the seven pillars of wealth had been almost an undercurrent to how I was a mentor to others, I was teaching others. People gravitated towards me and said, you seem to know what should I do about, what should I do about? And I didn't want to do that as an IFA. So I was doing it and I started speaking about it and that's when I met Chris in 2017, I think.

And we then might be slightly later than that, but either way. And I thought, well, I'm not really very good at building systems, but I'm good at ideas. So Chris helped me harness that. And now I'm grateful to him for setting up the podcast and setting up the systems behind the wealth builders membership. And now I'm so pleased for him that

speaker-0 (17:33.208)
He's got an extended leave of absence to go and enjoy a new life as a sort of, you know, a 40 odd year old newly married person. You know, he's put it off for long enough. So I thought he needed, he needed long enough to go and have a break. a very short question you asked me, but the, was a catalyst, which is the death of my father. So I resolved to be financially independent by the age of 45. So I had to set up a plan and I didn't write the plan. just thought, well, if I get that from.

You know, the mortgage broke inside to get that from the IFA, forget that from property, you know, because you can see where you could earn money from property as a recurring income stream. And really that's what I did and became independent at 45 and then decided, well, if I can do it, I can teach other people how to do the same. And that's what I did. So now I focus entirely on helping others get results and moving more.

speedily, I think, into the protection of wealth and the transfer of wealth as I'm getting older and seeing that that's a challenge I have to face for myself. you know, there's, think in every language you could imagine, there's the age-old adage of shirts, sleeves to shirts, sleeves in three generations. that, for that adage not to come true in my family, I had to pay more attention to the transfer. So that's what I'm doing now is

through the concept of the family wealth fortress is creating an environment to teach successful people, business owners in the main, property business owners, some employees, but mostly business owners, because they're torn from pillar to post in so many different directions, running businesses and running property portfolios, that they put this off as my dad did.

and they don't have wills, they don't have powers of attorney, they don't have a succession plan. They don't have anything at all to think about inheritance tax because unusually, I suppose, even the doctor's payslip, you know there was a minus between the top line and the bottom line.

speaker-1 (19:47.635)
peeled it back fully I have to tell you.

speaker-0 (19:49.678)
And deep down you knew it, right? You knew there was tax, you knew there was pension, you knew there was national insurance, and so you knew there was something going on. And of course, increasingly we're doing our own taxes, but because we're doing our own taxes as self-assessment, we're interacting with that regularly. But nobody interacts with their inheritance tax bill because they don't ever see it. It only happens when they die. And then it's picked up by the next generation who are ill-informed,

ill-equipped and often ill-advised because they're picking advice from AI. They're not really understanding the skill that's required to transfer and accept as a steward of wealth. Those two skills, one for the parent and one for the children, are completely different. So I'm now addressing that. Again, I have this tendency to listen to short questions and give long answers.

That's good for you because it means, you know, we're getting a tick in the box that he said bloody good question.

speaker-1 (20:50.774)
I love the idea in that answer that within wealth builders, there was a before Christian era where you were focusing and you're in control yourself trying to get everything set up for yourself. But then you recognize that there was a pain for other people. And then the after Christian era where you've set up the systems to basically serve other people. And I do like that. And it sort of makes me think about lots of people out there.

High achievers in their work, working really hard in professional careers, basically get lost in chasing their achievements, chasing promotions, improved pay, significant roles. And ultimately, they're looking for some form of external validation without want of a better phrase. think that is probably what they're after. And at some point, they lose control of their own life and do not have the fulfillment. when I'm...

perhaps saying this, this may resonate with maybe some of our listeners where they sort of feel that. It appears that this did happen to you when you recognized that you didn't like this and I think you used the word you wanted to do something that you would enjoy and have that control. But how often do you see this when you have people joining, for example, the wealth builders community or when you're talking to people going about your business? How long do you see, how often do you see the process of people

losing control of what they're wanting and wanting to search for some form of purpose or fulfillment.

speaker-0 (22:22.466)
Yeah, that's a deeper question. think it's a useful question insofar as I think if you were to wrap up the core objective that I see in people, albeit it's wrapped in different clothing, is the word freedom. And then that freedom normally is then underpinned by what's the purpose of that. So why do you want to be free financially? And usually there's a reason behind that.

and whether that's freedom of control. So for me, that was my dominant freedom. I don't want to be told what to do. I don't want to be told when to have my holiday, when I can, when I can't. That's not me. For others who like the structure of holidays and the usual things you get in employment, that's fine. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but often they're looking to change that. They're looking to have time, so freedom of time on their own terms.

where they can do what they want, freedom of relationship, to be with who you want, when you want. I'm sure from time to time, you've worked with medical professionals that perhaps you don't resonate with, but the environment in which you work can force that closer connection, whether physically or in any other way. And I think that's another one. So wanting to be able to...

choose who you work with and choose who you don't want to work with. And that works equally for me professionally. So I choose clients and I choose the ones that I don't think I would resonate with. But equally, know, that I'm very direct and I suppose if I had a failing, that's what people would say, you're very direct, Kevin. And that puts some people off. And I understand that and I respect that. Especially men actually who want to be in control and they don't want

the challenge of someone like me, because all I'm interested in frankly is the result. And if somebody is doing something that just doesn't make sense and is reducing the potential success of that result, I'm going to say it out loud. And if they don't respect and appreciate that because they're kind of happy drifting in their own life, then they wouldn't be a good fit. But freedom of creativity and freedom of purpose and that purpose, not just from a family perspective, but also can come back to

speaker-0 (24:49.078)
whatever they feel is something that they would do if they were wealthy. So what would that ideal life look like in a life well lived, in a life without worrying about money? What would they do? And often there's philanthropic ideas behind that, some kind of contribution, some kind of, and everybody's different. And it touches me when I see

so often what people decide to do. And if you just look at, why are you giving back? You know, why is Tracy giving back? Why are so many of the wealth builder members wanting to give back to others? All of our coaches, you know, almost all of them anyway, been through the program and they're not coaches in wealth builders for money. We don't pay them enough because we don't charge enough, you know, of super high paid coaches. They do it because they

They want to do something for others and to benefit them. So the answer to the question is everybody's different, but deep down there's a purpose that underpins everything. And the challenge, I think, if you see the purpose only in the progression in a career with no other purpose, it can draw a veil over your eyes for long time until you realize that the security that so often gets revealed.

for people in employment is the illusion of security. That that security can be lost whether through commercial reasons, not necessarily with doctors, but certainly redundancies, health problems themselves, or any kind of reason can throw a curve ball into our life. And the more you've got recurring income or streams of recurring income.

the less likely you are to be damaged by anything economically, politically, socially, physically, so that you can continue to live life on your terms really. that's, I think that's the undercurrent and the theme behind what we see when we meet so many people in wealth builders.

speaker-1 (27:02.014)
say, and maybe this will resonate with you, would say an additional freedom, freedom of kindness here, Linked to purpose closely, but actually there is something to be said for having any opportunity to be kind to others in whatever way you do it, as long as you do it with meaning. So I would probably say that that's behind many of the coaches and yourself and Christian come to mind, but others who are going on this journey

will recognise at a later point that they have that opportunity for freedom of kindness as well.

speaker-0 (27:36.302)
It's an interesting word. It's a bit like love, isn't it really? It's sort of in the eye of the beholder. It's a curious word, kindness, because if you were to play word association, often people will align the word kindness to an act of kindness. But it isn't really an act, is it? It's a philosophy. It's a set of principles that guide you to do right by others. And I think that's, to me, embedded in it.

I suppose my language probably would be make a difference to others in a positive way so that their life is enriched by having known, oh, it sounds a bit grand, doesn't it? But I don't mean that. I don't want to blow smoke up my own rear end on this one, but I do feel the need to try and make a difference when I meet someone that I have a sort moral obligation, if I'm spending time with them, to give them a better result than they're getting on their own.

If that's kind, that's fine. Although it's wrapped up in a commercial environment, but I do it for free anyway. So if somebody said to me, as my wife often says, are you ever going to retire? You know, I say, nah. Retirement means stopping what I'm enjoying and why would I do that? So I'm going to continue to do it. Obviously change the shape of what I'm doing now for reasons I've already explained.

speaker-1 (28:48.302)
Yes.

speaker-0 (29:00.802)
with the concept of the family wealth fortress, but that's just a rethink of what I'm already doing because there are so many people carrying on the good work of wealth builders because they, like the coaches, like you, like Tracy, like Chris, like Paul, like other members of the team, they resonate with the message and they're primarily just doing it.

get paid, they're doing it because they want to make a difference themselves. And I see that in their attitude and the way they want to learn and the way they feel the question and say, can you help me understand how I would answer that question? Not just because they want to be better, they want to give a better result more quickly to people who make inquiries. Because we can't engage with everyone professionally, but we can help everybody professionally, just by giving them some tips to go and do something. And that really wraps up in

in kind of three core concepts. One is clarity. So we try and bring clarity because what holds people back is a lack of clarity. They get confused, they get overwhelmed. Any of those words that lead to too many options, too many competing opinions, too many things that prevent good action. And then from clarity, we then talk to say, well, look, once you're clear, you can make one of three decisions. You can say, I'm really clear on this now.

which they weren't before, but we'll do that for free. You're clear. Are you happy with the clarity and are you happy with the result you're getting? Yes, I am. Then you don't need to do anything. Congratulations. Or here's something you could do yourself. We don't need to do it professionally. You could just do it. Like get your will made, goodness sake. We don't need to do the will. We just need them to accept they could do it. It's not a complicated thing. Or they need help.

And if they need help, we'll step into that light and say, well, let's see how we can help you or people that we have surrounded ourselves with who share our values, share our ethos, share our focus on a result for somebody else. And by the way, that takes a long time to find an ecosystem of people, partners, as we call them, who live life by the same set of values. They're all too often people meet me and all they want is money.

speaker-0 (31:24.052)
Or can you refer people to me for money and we won't do that. And just we won't do that. It's not our motivation is not to take money from others.

our motivation is to introduce someone to the right person who can help them. I suppose not unlike a GP referring to a specialist, hopefully they don't do it for money. And I'm assuming they do not, albeit you hear there's movies in America, isn't it, talking about drugs and so on. But putting that to one side, we're just looking to find the right people who can get the right result for that client at that point in time.

speaker-1 (32:01.824)
love the holistic approach that GPs have to the person in front of them. They try and address everything, but not only the person in front of them, but the family members and anything else that could impact their wellbeing in the future as well. So coming back to motivation and direction for people and purpose, one of the books which I love is by Simon Sinek, Start With Why.

I remember when I was completing out the forms with my wealth coach right at the very beginning and having a session with Christian a few years back on what is your purpose for building wealth and how crucial that is. And it wasn't that clear at the time, have to state, but reading that book started with why it did help. In many ways, I think you mentioned how people can easily become distracted and they need to find that clarity at some point.

speaker-0 (32:56.398)
It's a tricky one. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why it's a poignant point you make because at the beginning when I engaged with Chris, he struggled with that. You know, so for me it was relatively easy. You know, I'm a family man. I've got three grown up kids now all doing well. Um, but I need them to do better from a wealth transfer point of view because they've got different views to me, but we're getting there. Anyway, Chris didn't have any children, wasn't married. And it's like you keep.

telling me I need to ask questions about the reason why and I'm not clear on mine. The clarity will come. Just let it come when it comes, you You ask the question because you're there to be the chemical catalyst to stimulate the thinking, but you're not there to give them the answer because their answer is their answer and yours is yours and you'll get it. He's got it now.

which is the reason why I said all that time you've been putting it off, you know, just go and enjoy a really long period of whatever it is, even if it's a year or two years, whatever, just go and enjoy your life and just work out what your reason why will be after you've done that. And that's, that's what he's done is. And I think I'm just so pleased that people could do that. I mean, you don't get in, you don't often get the opportunity for sabbaticals these days, but

I suppose there are some professions where that's true. I know my wife is a member of a church and her ministers frequently on sabbaticals. I can't say how frequently, but it goes off and does things and meditates and goes on retreats. And I think that's all great. But I think it's hard to interrupt a really complex life and give yourself the time to do that thinking. So I'd encourage anybody to think about the reason why and what would drive them.

What is their deep down purpose? You know, you, I feel it deep in my DNA. Others don't feel it that strongly and I get it.

speaker-1 (35:05.678)
In my own view, pretty much like you, I've now got a deep, deep core sense of purpose, but it wasn't obviously always there. Wealthbuilders helped uncover it, interestingly, in the time I've spent with you. Perhaps therefore following a similar journey to Christian, who has discovered what he's looking for now.

I think you often mention one of your ROI's, know, relationship, opportunity, idea that may just come along. So that helps uncover something that may lead to your sense of purpose. you know, thinking of the person listening to this, they don't necessarily need to have a definitive purpose at this point in time. It's not purely about making money and building wealth, but actually...

If you want to have fulfillment beyond, when you reach the so-called finishing line of whatever it is, whatever your financial target is, it's having that ability to enjoy it with others and to find ways of living your life of fulfillment. That's how I see it. And I don't know if that resonates with your ideas, maybe slightly different.

speaker-0 (36:19.256)
I think if somebody said to me, distill down what your thoughts are about life in general. I'd say live a good life, try and make a big difference to others, leave a fantastic legacy. That's kind of it really. And everything else is stuff in the middle that just gets taken care of. But you have to do this on purpose.

and do it because it's an inner compass that's driving you. So when it's doing that, you don't have to think about it so much. Sometimes you don't need to articulate things. If I was to articulate something like integrity, for example, it's always doing the right thing even though nobody's looking at it. I did see something that of jarred me a bit. I saw something, I'm not really big on

watching social media, but something came across my radar, I can't remember why, but it was obviously me, some rich guy, hanging around on the outside of the supermarket shopping aisle.

And as older people were coming through, he was paying for their shopping. Yeah. Tapping on the thing. And you look at that from a purely, what's your reaction to that? think, well, that's really positive. That's really good that he's doing that. And I found myself thinking, why is he filming it? Why does he want everybody else to know what he's doing? If you have integrity and you want to serve others, serve them.

You don't need to tell people what you've done. So I felt there was a different purpose to why I was doing that, which jarred me. It didn't gravitate towards, I actually felt a slight repelling for the reason, really. And that's important. So I think kindness is something you do is not something that you want to be observed.

speaker-1 (38:27.682)
That is absolutely right. That is spot on in my opinion as well. I'm aware of people sort of showcasing the kind acts they do for want of getting a like or following or, you know, I think it's there. And unfortunately, the way the algorithms work in social media, once you're in that rabbit hole, you just see it's everywhere. But I think there is something to be said for carrying on with your kind acts purposefully in the absence of anyone watching.

and just kind acts, phoning people when they're having a hard time, just making sure that they're okay. I think I heard Jimmy Carr, interestingly, the comedian, Irish comedian, talking about how if he's cancelled, he remembers the people who call him on the day when the brown sticky stuff is hitting the fan. He remembers that.

And he doesn't necessarily remember the people who don't call him, but he acknowledges and remembers deep down the ones who sort of stick with him through the bad times or the hard times or the challenging times. those acts of calling people when it takes a little bit more effort to reach out is much more significant and impactful to him. And it touches a deeper part within the core. And it's not trying to showcase and it's not trying to...

promote yourself and it's not trying to go with someone during the good times is actually saying, you know, I'm here to, I'm a person of integrity and you know, I value what you're doing and I just want to make sure that you're okay really.

speaker-0 (40:05.262)
I mean, there's room and role for that acknowledgement and self-promotion in business. There's definitely room for that because the whole thing about customer success and customer validation, you want your customers to validate you because it tells you what you're doing is right. And if you're not, what you can do to improve. you don't want to live your life on validation. I don't want my mother to send me a

a Facebook review. not interested in that. I think it's a difficult one to try and segment the kindness piece without it starting to get bit mushy. I don't want it to be and I don't want anybody to think I'm like that. not. But I think it's a great point to look at how businesses and how

people can build their wealth but at the same time do so in a way that never diminishes anybody else. You know, say this, something I say to my wife all the time, you whenever I do watch the news or anything like that, which we do from time to time, is, as you say, all this creativity that you see with the criminal intention, if you could harness that creativity for good, the world would be an amazing place.

Bizarrely, they're just not. It's a troubling world right now that you see. What was it? Even just today I saw or heard something on the radio which said the Home Office had been alerted to this massive scam, trying to persuade people to say that they are a committed gay so they can stay in the country. And they fabricate all of this material to demonstrate that they are, even if they're not, just to

stay in the country. But the scamming creativity, why not be creative for good? Then the world becomes a better place. Money gets turned around and that acceleration of money, has gone back to my old economic states of the money supply, money keeps moving. But as soon as you're stealing, you're taking money out of the system. So it would just be so much better. But anyway, I'm never going to change that.

speaker-0 (42:30.432)
I do comment on it. It is one of the things that I'm beginning to notice more. It does seem that with an increasingly AI driven world, AI is being used not always for benefit. And I think we'll see more of that happening frequently. And of course, a lot of people are worried about AI threatening the very nature of the work they do.

speaker-1 (42:55.694)
I mean, I see us as stewards with responsibility for that as well. Interestingly, I've just read a book by Rutger Bregman talking about moral ambition and how we've got a responsibility, a moral responsibility as the current generation to object to things that we feel future generations will frown upon. You know, we've got a little bit of insight, for example, with, you know, the climate crisis.

the impacts there, adverse impact there. It may be the lack of taking a stance against certain political movements that are happening, certain political leaders, and even we could think about other areas that we could frown upon. Just as a few decades or few centuries back when slavery was rife, people weren't taking a stance against that. And we look back at those generations thinking,

how could they have not objected? You know, we see this as we evolve as a species, we've got a moral responsibility to do this. So I think that links in some ways to moral ambition as well as purpose. And interesting your thoughts on that, perhaps in the wealth builder setting and legacy, you know, and how important is it within our wealth builder fortress, family wealth fortress, to ensure that we have unity and kindness? Because I see

fortress, there's the walls around the side to protect the wealth so that we can be stewards and protect the inside of that. But how do we ensure that within that particular community that we have unity and kindness? Because every day in my work when I meet patients and families in the crisis, of course the money is important, but that's not the center of attention. It is really about how kind people are to each other.

how they look after each other in those times. just really interested in your side and whether that allows you to think and you probably have gone down these thoughts, but really to get your input.

speaker-0 (45:03.692)
I mean, it's more difficult just by way of sending a scene, I think. It's more difficult to focus on these sorts of issues if you're struggling financially, because your efforts and your attention is on yourself to survive. And so many retirees are doing so on very small amounts of money. I mean, it's a tragedy. recently just been to just

before Easter, I went to Norway. And there's a reason I'm telling you this. And really cruising up the Norwegian fjords and the serenity and the beauty of that and a chance to refresh and recharge my own batteries was great. But I'm fascinated by culture as well. And one of the things I noticed in Norway was

The whole society is trusting and it's bizarre. I mean, they've got deep embedded trust in the police, deep embedded trust in their politicians, deep and embedded trust in the system because everybody's protected. know, health is free. Pensions are free. Insurance for, you know, worst case scenario is free. They look after each other as a culture and we don't have that in other countries. And when you don't have it,

you're spending so much of your time just trying to survive. Now, when it comes to intergenerational wealth and the responsibility not just to create the structure of a fortress and you kind of articulated it as a set of walls, let's say, to protect money and that protection is normally from

external influences like tax or litigation or illness or something you don't expect to happen to you. But I think the opposite is true when it comes to legacy because smarter people than us have written great words and probably not better than all the worlds at stage. And all of the men and women have their exits and I'm not quoting verbatim from Shakespeare, but the point is

speaker-0 (47:29.356)
we know for sure we have an exit. So if we absolutely have an exit, we have an obligation not to look after people financially, but to engage them in dialogue and to involve them and to stimulate discussion. Because if you don't do that, if all you do is have a structure without communication, without dialogue, and you can wrap kindness in that in terms of how you make sure

families and particularly disjointed families or families from different marriages and so on, blended families. There's a whole area of law called contentious probate that's massive now because communication isn't happening. There's no planning. Death occurs. Shit happens.

Wasn't clear what the intention was, no communication. Wasn't clear what the long-term aspirations were for the money, no set of values. No document other than the will, even if it can be found. No documents to support the very essence of the business or the family's business, I call it. So I'm doing the opposite of that, helping the families create a set of values to perpetuate.

involving the children as early as possible, age appropriately, certainly no later than when they can join a family pension, which we know is a sass for those who listen to us, but an opportunity for a whole family to almost be involved together in a trust fund, to start making decisions together, start understanding how they work together, and then creating this idea of the battle and exchange.

to create stewards of money for future generations, the post-suspenders of money that then dissipates and dissipates and dissipates. And then that adage comes true again, shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves. And it's all too prevalent, know, it's 95 % or more. If anybody kept records, the challenge is there aren't any records. But the anecdotal evidence is the vast majority of families' money is gone within three generations. It's just gone. So...

speaker-0 (49:52.952)
What was the purpose of the family? What was the embedded purpose that could be passed on and taught? And we've seen examples where it's gray. And the reason I talked to you about Norway wasn't just the culture, but there's something I've discovered in Norway, which I must post about now, you made me think about it now, is everybody's heard of the Nobel Peace Prize. Now, Alfred Nobel came from a family of miners and entrepreneurs and oil explorers.

Obviously, he invented dynamite as well, but for mining purposes, not for explosions and killing people. the whole point about the lesson I learned from the Peace Prize in Alfred Nobel was a wealth builder lesson. He was childless and unmarried, had a fortune currently estimated to be 600 million.

And rather than leave the money, he left a legacy. And the trust was created to give prizes and acknowledgement to people who support humanity, who do good things, live a good life, make a big difference, leave a great life. And it's very powerful. And all of the prizes, he was Swedish. He's not Norwegian. So why is there a Norwegian?

connection. The Norwegian connection came that he wanted the Peace Prize to have the highest value and he elected to have the Norwegian Parliament.

called the srotting, to be the people who would choose. And that fund supports those prizes today. So no children, but the Peace Prize. Wow. You know? So the whole idea then is there is a purpose if you can find it. He found his, Chris will find his, you'll find yours and I'll find mine. So we all have our own in microcosm.

speaker-0 (51:57.784)
but some will find even greater philanthropic arguments and ideas than we've got. And I was fascinated by that and just didn't realize Swedish guy with a Norwegian legacy was just an amazing revelation that I hadn't heard of before.

speaker-1 (52:18.38)
I've got some additional stories with the Nobel Prize as well. The story I heard was that he read his own obituary and there was shock and horror when he read his obituary when I think they said, the king of death is dead. A quote like that, may be paraphrasing this. And he was absolutely shocked to hear about that, but they actually got it incorrect. It was his brother who died and that...

That was a moment for him to make him think, that is my legacy. I need to do something different for this. And that was the trigger that led to him going on that different path that you suggested. you know, that's, that's, and so the aspects of that is significant, but, but from the listener's point of view, I would challenge people to think about if they're going for success in their own work and chasing things that would look good on a CV, just to think about

what they'd like rather than their CV virtues, just to think about what their eulogy virtues would be like. What would people think about them when they're reading out the eulogy? It's not necessarily what you've achieved. It's not how many papers you've published if you're an academic or how much money you've earned if you're an entrepreneur. It's more about the people you've touched, the impact you've had on people and

how you made them feel. I think that is quite a significant part. And I'd like perhaps people to reflect on that and to maybe reframe wealth building with a purpose. That's my own take, but of course I'm biased on that.

speaker-0 (54:00.302)
Interesting. So if you got a version or a view on that, because we don't want Bimby to be binned in the dusty bin, because nobody resonates with it. So if you like the idea of some of these things and you want him to talk to more people and get these sort of insights of purpose and kindness and so on, then drop us a note to hello at wealthbuilders.co.uk.

So hello at wealthbuilders.co.uk and give the guy a break, you know? Because we don't want to him. We want to welcome him back. with that in mind, if there's nothing further from you, Bimbi, I just want to say thank you so much for stepping into the breach and being willing to put yourself to the test. And I've enjoyed the interview and it got lot more out of me than I thought it might.

Even though you know me very well because of your connection with wealth builders and your knowledge of our materials and so on But did you enjoy it?

speaker-1 (55:05.142)
Yes, I'm glad you enjoyed it because I certainly did. But more importantly, I hope our listeners got good value out of this session because after all, we're here to serve them really and we want them to gain value out of what we're doing.

speaker-0 (55:21.194)
And if you don't have a comment, just do a quick review and a thumbs up so that we can continue our path of recording things and meeting great people and we'll do more of the purpose and kindness, I'm certain of it anyway. And I'll leave you to be suggesting some guests. Tracy will suggest her guests, so women in wealth in the main, and then I will seek out.

those people who have got an outstanding wealth message to give, because I think it was definitely Kiyosaki, who we all know with the seminal book, Dad. the thing that I've said many times before, actually, if Witch Dad didn't exist, in other words, there wasn't a mentor, there'd be no book. So seek out mentors, seek out someone.

who's been there and done that to accelerate you, then you can reach your purpose even sooner. I'm not advertising for the role, I'm not asking you to seek me out, but there are people who can make distinctions, intellectual shortcuts to help you on your journey, to build wealth, to protect the wealth, and to transfer it to the next generation, together with the wisdom that you've accumulated along the way, and a value set that I hope you can now embed.

as you learn more about what we're doing. If that resonates with you, reach out as drops a message to hello at wealthbuilders.co.uk. Now, usually I end up with Chris saying, I'll see you same time next week. And we do the usual thing. so the jury is out.

speaker-1 (57:03.914)
Okay, let's wait for the jury then. I thought the judge and jury was the person I was interviewing.

speaker-0 (57:11.982)
If I'm the judge and jury, you're already in. So, know, I'm very happy with how it's gone. And I think there's been great value. actually look forward to listening to it back, you know, when I'm exercising so I can hear the distinctions that you got me to make for myself. Probably deep embedded in the recesses, but you got them to come out and I shared some things that I've never shared before. So, so thank you for doing that. And I look forward to seeing you at some time.

somewhere soon and until then see ya

speaker-1 (57:46.894)
We hope you enjoy today's episode. Don't forget that we are constantly updating our resources inside the WealthBuilders membership site to help you create, build and protect your wealth. Head over to wealthbuilders.co.uk slash membership right now for free access. That's wealthbuilders.co.uk slash membership.